Ye King of Spaine Inn - NPC OOC Discussion

kg little mac wrote:

Mr. Digby wrote:I do recall playing once where there was no need to hit "enter" to get a carriage return in the typed courier message window. This is different to the vanilla game... unless I dreamed it, which would be very strange! I even recall discussing it afterwards with Kevin.

I have a distinct enough memory of it to wonder how Garnier managed to do that. Maybe I am imagining it and I am getting senile...

Well. . . in Ron's Hits/GCM games, played using Garnier's random divisions and full GCM mods, you must hit the enter button to add lines in the courier message.

So perhaps it's not that you're getting senile, but possibly becoming MORE senile!

As much as I'd love to support the notion of Digby's increasing senility (what same person would volunteer to run a KS campaign of this scale?), I must confess I also recall playing a game or two where the carriage returns were automatically inserted when typing in a courier message. I remember being disappointed when I found myself playing a game where it wasn't working again.

How odd.

Where are we at for the first campaign battle, Senor Digby?

Still looking at this weekend, or would you like some more time to polish the OOBs?

I'm working through still adding Zeke's French revolution sprites and Reb Buglers latest flags into Kevin's HITS/Couriers mod. I'll preserve Kevins mod but duplicate it exactly with the new flags/sprites/units and call it the KS-Peninsular mod probably, then we can load it for the campaign battles and load only Kevins for normal Nap games.

I need to do a bit of testing to make sure I haven't broken everything. Its possible I could take a normal OOB like Talavera and add in the new unit classes so we can test them, I won't have that ready for tomorrow I don't think but I can try.

Once the new mod is done and stable and I know I haven't screwed everything up then it will be a doddle to make the scenarios using Stefan's generator plus a bit of manual fiddling so its possible we could do a game this weekend all except for the fact that there's probably not enough notice now.

We need you and Mark to be present as the two commanders so it probably means weekend after this one.

Ok, weekend after next we go frog-gigging.

I'm available this weekend if Mark is - or the next if that works better.

That brings up a question from me, that I haven't seen answered in the rules, etc.  Let me use the coming battle, leaving out any details so as to avoid a security breach.

Do we - players that is to say - get to volunteer to command a brigade or division as appropriate as a subordinate to the designated commanders?  (Of course, French players would command French units and Spanish players would command Spanish units.)  We will have a statement of the overall commander's intentions for the battles, etc, to guide our conduct in each of the battles,  plus a short battlefield conference via our TS server just before they commence - or will we (and if so, how long; five minutes)?  Is there a designated day or days for the battles to be fought; e.g., "Saturdays or Sundays, weather permitting"?  Will we be using the doodle to decide/coordinate the day or days on which the battles will be fought rather than a designated day or days?  Or will we use the doodle merely to reach consensus as to the time to start the battles?  I apologize for the spate of questions, but I've been away for a time and the discussions of these matter imply (to me of course) that there is some generally agreed-to procedure which is known to all, except not known to me.  Hence the deluge of silly questions.    Thanks in advance for the answers and of course for the patience to answer. 

Thanks for asking these questions Ike, I needed to advise everyone how this will work so your questions have crystallised my thoughts.

It works like this. First I get the two players whose forces have collided on the strategic map - in this case Mark and Justin - and via e-mails get an agreement from them when both are available for a game. It may actually be more than 2 commanders, so I'll try and get everyone who has brought an independent command to a battle to agree a date. I'll try and get a variety of days/times but due to the large blue wobbly thing in between us, it'll most likely be either late on a Friday night UK/EU time, or evening Saturday or Sunday UK/EU time which makes it afternoon somewhere in the USA - in other words the usual kinds of days/times our large Napoleonic HITS games take place that Ron and others so generously design and host.

Once I have those dates I'll announce them in that teams secret bunker area and players should sign up on the battle thread. I prefer to not use Doodle for a campaign game as the number of players the enemy side has is a good indicator of how strong they are.

Having a good host in the game will also be critical, especially if its a big game or a 'heavy' map (like Antietam), so that's another factor. I need to get the scenario to the host before the day, or on the day. The host or I will announce when people join TS of any special rules in force like combat area boundaries, visibility and any other special rules such as uncrossable water barriers, fords, bridges, etc. Also quite important the games tree density settings. I'm going to experiment with lowering this quite a bit since many of the SoW maps are tree-heavy and Spain is a lot less forested than Virginia or Pennsylvania. I think the hosts setting defines what each player sees but I'm not certain that's correct so I'd ask every player to set their tree percentage to the same value. I do not think this affects the game in any real way, but it makes it visually more Spain-like in many places.

On the secure campaign pages for each side (you can see those, Ike, right?) there is a thread for each battle which is a place where I put a battle map and general summary of what's happened to bring two forces into conflict. I add a list of friendly forces as well. It is then up to the relevant commander for that battle to give out any additional information he wishes, known enemy forces, more detail on own forces, possible enemy intentions, his plans, contingency plans, etc, etc - whatever he wants to say. Think of this as a generals conference the evening before the battle if you will, or dispatches written by the C-in-C while the army is marching or deploying. As players sign up in the battle thread the C-in-C will allocate them roles and so when the MP game starts everyone should be able to quickly select their officer and away we go.

I want to be in the actual game lobby with the OOB visible to both sides for the absolute shortest possible time because so much is (annoyingly!) given away in that screen. If only NSD would introduce allocating players to sides before they get to the OOB screen in v2 of their game...

I hope that all this pre-game prep will mean we do not need any pre-game TS meetings nor any time in-game after the clock is running to talk things over. We go straight to trops moving and comms via couriers.

I think this is fair as it rewards the best organised team, those who've put in the most effort.

It means however that casual people can't come to the game without causing some friction. They are welcome if that sides C-in-C will have them but there won't be any time given to that side to integrate that player - the C-in-C will have to send him orders via courier once the game is running. Harsh I know, but I think its realistic and it means a side where every player has signed up in advance isn't disadvantaged.

Thanks for clarifying Martin.
Just one thought - you put immense work into the campaign, but you will only be playing in battles as a filler as I understand. Is that okay for you? I wonder if it would be good to have you as an umpire present if there is a debate on the battle result . Or will you decide based on reports by both CinCs?

I don't think it would be fair for me to ever command more than a brigade on either side because a division commander will often be responsible for some important decisions and I'll know exactly what the enemy is trying to do. In big battles I guess I could take a division provided it was a task that isn't very proactive with much decision making. A reserve that sits behind the battle all day until its called forwards and goes where its told, or a division ordered to stay static and defend a flank, or maybe the garrison of a town that will stay in there but defend itself if attacked. That kind of command would suit me (they are also the kinds of commands that would bore most players so thats good too).

I will switch sides alternately each battle as well, where possible.

I want to be a player in each game anyway so I can save the replay and download the casualty dump file.

I'm keeping an open mind about battle results. Call me naive but I think, given how subtle some of the strategic aims of the opposing sides can be in a campaign battle vs a stand-alone scenario, the winner and loser should usually be obvious. I am happy to award a 'win' if a side achieves its strategic goals but loses more men and the opponent holds the field.

Usually holding the field at the end is enough of a sign of a winner because that side can sucour its wounded, march off its prisoners and gather in its deserters far more easily while denying these benefits to a side that has withdrawn from the field, and while this will definitely influence win/lose settings in Hay's campaign battle casualty tool, and thus overall losses to the two sides, it still may not decide who was the strategic winner.

Remember the overall objective of the French is to draw supplies/taxes and general "success" from their Spanish adventure and so the battle win/lose result is more important here, helping to determine if the French occupation of Spain is successful or not each year.

As a hypothetical example, say that a French division is blocking a road into the Pyrenees. Over the border lies a supply depot town and next turn a fresh French corps will become active there and march into Spain. If the Spanish get there this turn the town is occupied and the French recruits, etc dispersed so the corps can't form. The blocking French division holds its ground against a far larger Spanish army and is crushed and utterly defeated. The battle is a win for the Spanish on a tactical level (Hays tool) but as an event that affects campaign stategy the town was kept secure long enough for the new corps to form so it was a win strategically for the French.

History has lots of examples, Dunkirk in 1940 was obviously a German win tactically but strategically it was a British victory because the BEF units which were defeated defending Dunkirk bought the rest of the army enough time to be withdrawn.

Its often complex how things measure up so all I can do is try to reach a decision on a case by case basis but I'll discuss my reasoning each time.

Thank you for the detailed reply, Mr. Digby; very clear and helpful.  Yes, I have access to the secure campaign pages for the French side.  

On the topic of who "wins" a battle and distinguishing between battles which are a tactical loss but a strategic victory on the one hand and those which are a tactical win but a strategic loss, it is my thinking that the decision on whether the battle - qua battle - was won or lost be decided in the usual way - so a tactical victory or loss - and whether it was a strategic victory or loss will appear in the course of the campaign.  To use the hypothetical you mentioned, it could be possible that the French division is utterly destroyed in the battle, but the amount of time that the Spanish forces were delayed was insufficient to allow the new French corps to form and be able to defend itself and so the battle was both a tactical loss and a strategic loss.  It could be that the time was sufficient (the outcome you mention), giving us a tactical defeat and strategic victory.  It could be that the French division loses heavily but still exists as a functioning field formation and then either (a) the delay of the Spanish was sufficient or (b) it was insufficient.  Or, a different Spanish force that is not facing a French blocking force and so is not delayed by them reaches the French depot in time to prevent the corps' formation in despite of the - apparent - French strategic victory.  Which is to say, at my usual and boring length, determine the victor and loser in the ordinary way by the ordinary criteria, and announce it as such in the newsletter (wherever is appropriate), but let the events as they play out in the campaign - either in a subsequent battle in the same turn or in a future turn - determine whether it was a strategic victory or defeat.  E.g., "Despite the valiant sacrifice of the Division of General Lambchop, Spanish forces entered the depot at (wherever) on the (a day early enough to prevent the corps' forming up) thereby preventing General Le Poof's Corps of fresh French soldiers from being able to enter the Peninsula as scheduled."  Which event, itself, may actually end up being only a delay of that corps' entry into Spain .... etc, etc, etc.   We'll have different determinations, decided by events in the campaign subsequent to the battle, as to the actual character of any given battle and its effect on the outcome of the war.  That's what makes General Le Phew's "Memoirs of an Interlude in Spain" so interesting to read:  he already knows how it turns out and can make the narrative suitably dramatic.  We are in the process of determining how our "Interlude in Spain" will turn out and therefore cannot know what the results will be before-time.  That's one of the things which make a war game campaign so much fun:  it's rather like the real thing in that regard and that makes it even more exciting and interesting to play in a campaign.  (P.S. - And you're doing very well with it by the way!)

Khryses wrote:I'm available this weekend if Mark is - or the next if that works better.

I'm almost always available on the weekends.

So guess it comes down to when Digby wants to run it again - and if we can get our subordinates onboard for the time in question.

Alright, let's take a shot at Saturday then - Mark, does that work for you?

If so, we can see about sorting out our teams...

I would like to fight Atalayuclas this weekend but I'm currently at a complete dead end and loss as to how to get the French Revolution uniforms mod integrated with Gunships mod. It needs someone with more skill than I in handling sprites I think. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

I can always back the FrRev mod sprites out and go without them if we begin to run out of time.

Mark and Justin, which times can you make:

Friday 21 June 20:00 UK time
Friday 21 June 23:59 UK time
Saturday 22 June 16:00 UK time
Saturday 22 June 19:30 UK time
Saturday 22 June 23:59 UK time
Sunday 23 June 16:00 UK time
Sunday 23 June 19:30 UK time

Both the Friday times and the two later Saturday times.

The first Sunday time I (and you, if I'm not mistaken?) will be busy in Hue, and I doubt I'll have gotten home and eaten before the second so I think it's best if we don't try either of those.

All but the first two Saturday times work for me.

Have we enough players for Hue? I thought it wasn't decided yet? I was still working on the premise it wasn't being run!

That gives us:

Friday 21 June 20:00 UK time
Friday 21 June 23:59 UK time
Saturday 22 June 23:59 UK time

No, he said it was go one person ago - now we actually have the full minimum roster since Vincent's confirmed his availability.

Yes Hue will be happening come what may...

See you both on Sunday.

Let's try for the late Friday game, perhaps - that's looking best for my team so far.

Will have to cancel the battle for now I'm afraid. I can't get this mod working. Been staring at csv files for 2 weeks and clearly I'm not qualified to do modding work on SoW... everything I try crashes with the same error which I cannot trace. I give up.

I'll take a break and sleep on it and begin again with a clean slate tomorrow. I'm clearly missing something basic and I'll try and do it step by step.

I havn't modded sprites and OOB's but it might be worth just testing the process out with one or two extra units first.

Keep at it though, Diggers. Its reassuring to know that there's somebody else who's suffering too

The Spanish team is ready for a game tonight - I hear the French are planning on sporting just the one commander?

Brave move!