Finally a kriegsspiel on the PC? Gettysburg: Scourge of War review

Martin (et al).

The most recent one I am aware of is here. http://www.armchairgeneral.com/histwar-les-grognards-pc-game-review.htm

The focus is on the general gameplay rather that the network play capabilities. It is also several patches behind the latest.

There is also a forum which you can link to from the retail site. As a member I have full access and I believe there is a form of guest access from which you might set some flavour of the enthusiasm for the game by reading the various threads.

http://www.histwar.com/

There is a significant AI element to the gameplay to allow the player as commander to concentrate on the higher level. Limited awareness becomes available through the options menu.

Many thanks Tim. I'll have a look at the Histwar links.

And best of luck to Mike. Hope tomorrow's session with the US Army majors goes well.

Martin

Martin wrote:Many thanks Tim. I'll have a look at the Histwar links.

And best of luck to Mike. Hope tomorrow's session with the US Army majors goes well.

Martin

Thanks Martin! I'm setting up the maps and pieces now. I can't wait!

Mike

Here is where things are with the proposed multiplayer game.......

(a) 11 or 12 have now expressed interest, which is a very healthy number, but really anyone who wants to play will be very welcome, so please get in touch if you are hanging back. Given that designer Norb said in response to my review that the solid multi-player game player-count is 10, it seems sensible to initially limit the number of participants to that. In practice, not everyone is likely to be able to make any particular game, so I doubt that will be a problem.

(b) Have installed Teamspeak3 (which is free) as our new in-game communication tool, and will test it with Pete Maidhoff in next few days. Pete - please let me know when would be convenient. Given the time difference, would sometime this weekend suit you?

(c) Am getting a brief tutorial on Hamachi tomorrow from my youngest. This creates a virtual LAN for us to play on, is what we have used in our previous small games, and seems to work well. Players will therefore need to download & install this too (it’s also free).

(d) Am working on a guide to hosting & joining multiplayer games, as we don't think the one in the manual is as clear as it might be. Will include something on Teamspeak & Hamachi too, so it's all there in one place. Essentially there is a bit of set-up work for players to do once only, but after that it’s just a few mouse clicks to host or join any game.

(e) Rather than go for a big game from the word go, and possibly fall flat on our face, we think it makes sense to try one or two small ones first, for just 2 or 3 players first, and thoroughly test communications etc. Will be looking to do that perhaps the week after next.

(f) If all the above goes well, it may still be possible to try a large game on a weekend in mid-December. Sunday 18th has been suggested. I am not promising this however, as we want it to go smoothly, and believe it’s worth taking some time & trouble to ensure that happens.

Any questions, or anything I appear to have forgotten?

Martin

Team Speak 3 Test...how is early Saturday moring for me, early afternoon for you? After that I will be out of pocket for the week traveling on business. If that works, pick a time and I'll try to match it GMT-5.

Pete Maidhof(-f)

Whoops, sorry Pete

I'll email you to agree a time (and avoid any further public embarrassment).

Martin

I am watching this with a great deal of interest.

We potentially need to use 3 applications to run an on-line multiplayer game. These are the game itself, a communications programme so we can talk if we meet-up on the battlefield (rather than using the normal courier system which comes with the game), and also a LAN emulator so we all can play over a virtual LAN. Any of these could potentially give rise to technical issues, but we now have volunteers for each to field FAQs:

1. Gettysburg: Scourge of War. That's me folks.

2. TeamSpeak 3 comms programme. Pete Maidhof. See new topic at http://forum.kriegsspiel.org.uk/t206-gettysburg-scourge-of-war-team-speak-3#1221 for more details.

3. Hamachi LAN emulator. David James

My thanks to Pete & David for agreeing to act as our leads on TeamSpeak & Hamachi respectively. They have both used their respective applications before, but both will be researching them in more detail next week, so if anyone does have any questions for them, it may be an idea to wait until next weekend.

In a test today, Pete and I experienced some delay in getting TeamSpeak to work, The solution turned-out to be quite straightforward, once you knew it! We imagine though, that others may find similar problems the first time they try to use any of 1. - 3. Having a 'go-to' person should help, but Pete & I were coming around to the view that, rather than running one big game initially, it might be better to run several small ones, to iron out any problems relating to individual player's kit or configuration. Then, once we go for a big game, we will at least know that everyone has Hamachi installed correctly, has a microphone that works (and is enabled for TeamSpeak) etc, and other stuff we have probably not thought about yet.

Martin

I am not sure why you need this teamspeak thing, is it audio?

I use skype chat for the online multi player game Travian, it is basically a text chat utllity & works for me, good thing is you keep the history. Great to organise attacks, strrategy & stuff.

What are the minimum requirements for this game, I have a relatively old PC, but I wll replace it soon, so I may stretch to a machine that will handle this game.

TIA Rich

henridecat wrote:I am not sure why you need this teamspeak thing, is it audio?

I use skype chat for the online multi player game Travian, it is basically a text chat utllity & works for me, good thing is you keep the history. Great to organise attacks, strrategy & stuff.

What are the minimum requirements for this game, I have a relatively old PC, but I wll replace it soon, so I may stretch to a machine that will handle this game.

TIA Rich

Hi Rich

We could play without TeamSpeak, using the game’s courier system to communicate even when players meet-up on the battlefield. OTOH it's more convenient to have a conversation, it's more authentic if you are in the same place, and using the courier system (even with instant receipt) does not work so well if more than 2 of you are involved in the discussion.

We used Skype for our previous 3-player games, but have not found a way of just using in when folks meet up. We don't want the whole the team hearing every conversation for example, although I can imagine that's just what you do want playing Travian. TeamSpeak 3 has been recommended by players in the US, and it supposedly allows us to have these private conversations, and we think even allows concurrent separate conversations by groups of team members in separate parts of the battlefield, which may occasionally happen. All that said, we (or more accurately Pete) are still investigating what it can do. If it does not suffice, we are certainly open to alternatives.

I’m honestly not sure what the minimum spec is. It’s been designed so you can vary the graphic settings for older computers, by reducing uniform details & variation, reducing amounts of vegetation etc. Avoiding army-level engagements will also help. And we will probably start fairly small with our multiplayer games, as we are feeling our way. I would expect all our early ones to be at division or corps level, so that should help.

To get the best out of a new pc, I would recommend one with a separate graphics card.

Martin

I have read in the current PCFORMAT 260, which incidentally has four pages on creating a VPN for gaming (and something about that on its associate website too), that the Hamachi VPN download is free for a trial period only. Am therefore holding off downloading it until shortly before the game, in case the trial period runs out in the meantime. Does the Teamspeak download operate in a similar way?

I note however that the PCFORMAT review states that VPNs “neatly sidestep routing and firewall issues”, which is encouraging. Players will still need to disable popups like Fliptoast which could potentially interrupt the actual game at a crucial moment, though I do not think bring it down completely.

With regard to the actual game, I ran the corps tutorial again over the weekend, having now read completely through the manual. Scored a minor victory this time, but unwisely continued the battle, and the pesky AI Rebs crept up on both east and west sides of Gettysburg, where I could not see them, converting my minor victory into a disastrous rout. They have obviously assimilated something from their previous defeat – and I have learnt nothing from my earlier victory

Intending to check out Les Grognards too.

I have read in the current PCFORMAT 260, which incidentally has four pages on creating a VPN for gaming (and something about that on its associate website too), that the Hamachi VPN download is free for a trial period only. Am therefore holding off downloading it until shortly before the game, in case the trial period runs out in the meantime. Does the Teamspeak download operate in a similar way?

Many thanks Your Majesty; that's clearly something we need to check for both applications.

I note however that the PCFORMAT review states that VPNs “neatly sidestep routing and firewall issues”, which is encouraging. Players will still need to disable popups like Fliptoast which could potentially interrupt the actual game at a crucial moment, though I do not think bring it down completely.

Yes it's encouraging. We do just need to check though that sidestepping routing and firewall issues does not weaken security. It's probably not a problem, as VPNs are now in widespread use, but I know that security is at the top of David's list for investigation.

With regard to the actual game, I ran the corps tutorial again over the weekend, having now read completely through the manual. Scored a minor victory this time, but unwisely continued the battle, and the pesky AI Rebs crept up on both east and west sides of Gettysburg, where I could not see them, converting my minor victory into a disastrous rout. They have obviously assimilated something from their previous defeat – and I have learnt nothing from my earlier victory

I was distressed to hear of this. Do not blame yourself, sire. The defeat was doubtless due to your flunkies.

Martin

Have a look on the Hamachi website https://secure.logmein.com/welcome/managehamachi/

This mentions a free version for up to 16 gamers, non-commercial use only - details pasted below.

"The free version of LogMeIn Hamachi can be used 100% free for non-commercial use and is limited to 16 computers.

Non-commercial use is defined as individuals using the product for personal use, such as a gaming or family network, and non-profit institutions (as defined by the IRS as a 501c corporation or similarly situated international non-profits).

The free version may be used for a limited 14-day evaluation period in a commercial environment. However, it is not licensed for use within for-profit businesses, government institutions (federal, state, local), educational institutions (including universities and state or local school systems), and any individuals using Hamachi on behalf of such entities or institutions.

Prior to subscribing to the Hamachi free version, you will be asked to verify you are using it for non-commercial purposes.*"

Sounds reassuring. Many thanks Tim.

In other news, am having a 'teach-in' tomorrow with David Commerford, who is the proud possessor of a superfast broadband connection. Am going to take him through a sample sandbox game of the kind we might do multiplayer, and also show him how to set-up a scenario and host a game.

Martin

Thanks Tim for clearing up the amibiguity on the Hamachi website.

Came across this [on the Gameranger site], which sheds a tiny glimmer of light on the several pages of technobabble David C and I found in the Gettysburg manual:

“If you have a broadband internet connection chances are your [computer] is behind a router. The main purpose of a router is to share your internet connection across multiple computers. Unfortunately, this often causes problems for hosting internet games. Most Internet Service Providers (ISP's) supply a single internet address for you to use. This is your external or public IP address. The router uses this address, but the router allows your [computer]s to have one or more local or private IP addresses too. These local or private IP addresses can only be seen from your network and are usually of the form 192.168.x.x or 10.0.x.x. The process is known as Network Address Translation (NAT) or IP Masquerading. The router also has its own local/private IP address in addition to the external/public IP address.

When you host a game, other joining players need to be able to connect to your [computer], but when the incoming connection request reaches your router, your router does not know which [computer] it should forward the request to, so instead it just ignores the request. This is what is happening when other players are unable to join your hosted games.

The solution is to configure your router to do port forwarding/port mapping. This tells the router to forward requests from certain games directly to your [computer]'s local/private IP address. Game connection requests are identified by port numbers that distinguish them from other internet data such as email or web. The catch is that this configuration is a little different for each type of router, and the port numbers for each game are usually different. To make matters worse, there are two different types of port number, TCP and UDP, but depending on your router, you may not need to know this.

Refer to your router's instruction manual for details (and contacting your ISP may also help), but most routers use web browser based configuration. To do this, enter your router's local/private IP address into your web browser. Most router addresses are either 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.2.1, but you can find your router's address under Network in System Preferences”.


It is stated in the VPN forums that should you have software from multiple VPNs installed, you need to disable those not being used, in your System Preferences/Network menu, otherwise they may interfere with the one in use. Some contributors also say it may be necessary for the host, and possibly the players, to suspend any operative firewalls including Windows and AVG, and also any operative virus checkers; others say this is dangerous and is not necessary. I got the impression that fiddling with routers as above may carry a slight risk of permanent system damage too!

Dazed and Confused? Why wouldn’t you be?

Checked out Histwar’s LES GROGNARDS site, too, though have not yet downloaded the game, which costs about 30 euros in its cheapest configuration. There is a very nice .pdf manual readable there, which does indeed mention the use of courier dispatches in multiplayer games. It seems to be a tactical game on the same sort of scale as Gettysburg, and with graphic quality almost as good. On my list for Santa

First of all let me introduce myself:

I'm the aforementioned David James, which makes me Martin's youngest (and of course favourite) son! I figured, given that many of you may be unsure about Hamachi, that i should finally join the kriegsspiel forum, its been a long time coming but i've made my way here now!

Just to let you all know, the term has finished for me so feel free to throw any Hamachi related queries my way and ill do my best as our apparent expert to answer them :S

I also wanted to throw my two cents in on a couple of points:

firstly, this is just my preference and im happy to play either way, but i think it would probably be a waste of an opportunity if we didn't, at least eventually, go for a big human vs human battle, would be a great experience for all i'm sure. that said i appreciate the need to get to grips with the technology/ game itself by going slowly at first, which leads me onto my second point....

regarding hamachi, i have always found it to be a very simple, effective and generally pretty handy piece of kit, that said there are a couple of potential security issues that im currently researching. so far i think it still looks very promising but i'll make sure dad includes full details in his user-guide document. if anybody cannot wait, i have found a pretty gd FAQ online at

terrariaonline.com (i would post the whole link but the evil forum overlord has told me i can't post links until ive been a member for 7 days so wht you gunna do eh?)

hopefully this should explain a few easy fixes to the security problem. overall though my ball is still firmly in the hamachi court!

all the best

David

DJ91 wrote:First of all let me introduce myself:

I'm the aforementioned David James, which makes me Martin's youngest (and of course favourite) son! I figured, given that many of you may be unsure about Hamachi, that i should finally join the kriegsspiel forum, its been a long time coming but i've made my way here now!

Just to let you all know, the term has finished for me so feel free to throw any Hamachi related queries my way and ill do my best as our apparent expert to answer them :S

I also wanted to throw my two cents in on a couple of points:

firstly, this is just my preference and im happy to play either way, but i think it would probably be a waste of an opportunity if we didn't, at least eventually, go for a big human vs human battle, would be a great experience for all i'm sure. that said i appreciate the need to get to grips with the technology/ game itself by going slowly at first, which leads me onto my second point....

regarding hamachi, i have always found it to be a very simple, effective and generally pretty handy piece of kit, that said there are a couple of potential security issues that im currently researching. so far i think it still looks very promising but i'll make sure dad includes full details in his user-guide document. if anybody cannot wait, i have found a pretty gd FAQ online at

terrariaonline.com (i would post the whole link but the evil forum overlord has told me i can't post links until ive been a member for 7 days so wht you gunna do eh?)

hopefully this should explain a few easy fixes to the security problem. overall though my ball is still firmly in the hamachi court!

all the best

David

My goodness! Who is this awful person who ndoesn't use capital letters? I blame the parents etc etc.

Martin (David's dad)

By him joining it has just lowered the average age of the readership by some considerable amount....



Nice to see a youngster chip in...

MJ1 wrote:Nice to see a youngster chip in...

Aye, he’s not such a bad lad I suppose....

Will provide an update on where things are on multiplayer front shortly.

Martin

King_Rufus wrote:Thanks Tim for clearing up the amibiguity on the Hamachi website.

Came across this [on the Gameranger site], which sheds a tiny glimmer of light on the several pages of technobabble David C and I found in the Gettysburg manual:

“If you have a broadband internet connection chances are your [computer] is behind a router. The main purpose of a router is to share your internet connection across multiple computers. Unfortunately, this often causes problems for hosting internet games. Most Internet Service Providers (ISP's) supply a single internet address for you to use. This is your external or public IP address. The router uses this address, but the router allows your [computer]s to have one or more local or private IP addresses too. These local or private IP addresses can only be seen from your network and are usually of the form 192.168.x.x or 10.0.x.x. The process is known as Network Address Translation (NAT) or IP Masquerading. The router also has its own local/private IP address in addition to the external/public IP address.

When you host a game, other joining players need to be able to connect to your [computer], but when the incoming connection request reaches your router, your router does not know which [computer] it should forward the request to, so instead it just ignores the request. This is what is happening when other players are unable to join your hosted games.

The solution is to configure your router to do port forwarding/port mapping. This tells the router to forward requests from certain games directly to your [computer]'s local/private IP address. Game connection requests are identified by port numbers that distinguish them from other internet data such as email or web. The catch is that this configuration is a little different for each type of router, and the port numbers for each game are usually different. To make matters worse, there are two different types of port number, TCP and UDP, but depending on your router, you may not need to know this.

Refer to your router's instruction manual for details (and contacting your ISP may also help), but most routers use web browser based configuration. To do this, enter your router's local/private IP address into your web browser. Most router addresses are either 192.168.1.1 or 192.168.2.1, but you can find your router's address under Network in System Preferences”.


It is stated in the VPN forums that should you have software from multiple VPNs installed, you need to disable those not being used, in your System Preferences/Network menu, otherwise they may interfere with the one in use. Some contributors also say it may be necessary for the host, and possibly the players, to suspend any operative firewalls including Windows and AVG, and also any operative virus checkers; others say this is dangerous and is not necessary. I got the impression that fiddling with routers as above may carry a slight risk of permanent system damage too!

Dazed and Confused? Why wouldn’t you be?

Checked out Histwar’s LES GROGNARDS site, too, though have not yet downloaded the game, which costs about 30 euros in its cheapest configuration. There is a very nice .pdf manual readable there, which does indeed mention the use of courier dispatches in multiplayer games. It seems to be a tactical game on the same sort of scale as Gettysburg, and with graphic quality almost as good. On my list for Santa

Golly, that does look intimidating I agree. And yet we set-up a multiplayer game using Hamachi the other day, in a couple of minutes, so the reality is very different. More on that in my forthcoming update.

Thanks for the info re Histwar’s LES GROGNARDS. I hadn't picked up that you could do multiplayer with dispatches. It looks as if this will be another good game for us to explore. If Your Royal Highness finds out anything more, perhaps it would be an idea to start a new topic specifically for that game?

Martin

As promised, here is an update on where things are:

(a) TeamSpeak 3 & Hamachi still under research by Pete Maidhof and David James respectively. Positive noises emerging re ease of use & security for the latter.

(b) First draft of a help-sheet on hosting & joining games sent out for comment to a couple of folks. At the moment this just covers what you need to do with the game, but I will add in the TeamSpeak 3 & Hamachi stuff too when we have those firmed-up

(c) David Commerford came over on Wednesday, and I took him through how to set-up a ‘sandbox’ (ie hypothetical) scenario, which we then played jointly. I think it is fair to say David was very taken with the game. That is particularly good, as he has superfast broadband, which is by no means universally available in the UK. So he will be a very useful potential host. Our own 'Mr Big', in fact. Following that, I showed him how to join & host games. As luck would have it, my David phoned while he was visiting, and he had his laptop with him, so we were able to set-up a multiplayer game for real. Using Hamachi, David C and I did the set-up & hosting, and David J joined us, in no more than a couple of minutes, start-to-finish. Huzzah!

(d) One think I have wanted to test is the ability to use modded orders of battle in a multiplayer game. I had been told this is possible even if only the host has the OOB installed on his machine. This afternoon David J and I played a game using a modified western theatre OOB that I have made, and I am pleased to report that it worked fine. This is potentially very useful as it means we can replicate the usual k/spiel situation where one person can come up with a scenario, and the other players will not know what troops & objectives the enemy may have.

(e) One other advantage of modded OOBs is that you can experiment. In the OOB we used this afternoon, fought between two infantry corps, I had given the human one a small cavalry company for use in a patrol/scouting role, which is a feature the standard game current lacks.

(f) Heard from Richard Madder today that would like to be included in our pool, so I think we are now at 12 or 13. Can anyone who has already expressed interest but not yet sent me their email address please do so. The only one I can think of off-hand is Mike/Streetgang6. Plus I am keen to know how your session with the majors went, Mike

Martin

Hello kriegsspielers.

I'm here to advertise something I've made for Scourge of War players called GCM.

sow.philipmcg.com

The main points are:
-- Easier to create scenarios than Sandbox, with more options and balance
-- Records battles so you can look at battle results on the website
-- Gameplay changes to discourage unrealistic, unbalanced, or boring play styles
-- Randomly generated terrain maps

Various kinds of scenarios:
-- Campaign divisions (each player fights with the same troops in each battle, with carryover)
-- Random divisions (all armies are randomly generated for a single battle)
-- Historical (each player gets a random selection of historical brigades from the Gettysburg OOB)
-- All of the above are auto-balanced to make battles more even

If you guys want to try it among yourselves, you're welcome to. If you have any questions or problems I might be able to help. I realize there may be ways you play the game that aren't supported by GCM. I sometimes add more options to allow different kinds of games if enough people want it, and everyone benefits -- so I'm happy to hear about stuff.

Many thanks for posting this Garnier. It looks as if quite a lot of your stuff will be of interest to us.

Martin

The approach of Xmas has slowed things down a bit, but thought I’d update you on where things stand:

1. Hamachi – our elite team has now opined that the protection Hamachi offers is actually quite good. A guide on how best to use it is in the final stages of preparation.

2. We now have a potential pool of 16 players. Ike, can you send me your email please?

3. Just for fun, I have produced an OOB based on opposing Reisswitz-type 19th Prussian corps, with infantry battalions, cavalry squadrons & 8-gun batteries. Have also adjusted the cavalry to make them more effective in a charge than typical ACW cavalry. A few days ago we played a k/spiel style scenario against the AI, and it worked really well. Won’t say anything more, as we will probably use this scenario with some of you guys.

4. There is a very nice Napoleonic mod under development btw, with some jazzy uniforms. See the Norbsoft forum at http://www.norbsoftdev.net/index.php/forum/napoleonic-era/39386-mod-update-including-new-sprites

5. The New Antietam pack , covering that battle and South Mountain, is due out at the end of December.

Martin

Martin: I've just read this post this morning and emailed you with my addy. Apologies, as I've been busy with various real life issues, including my own solo gaming and my wife's long-term illness, but the discussion about 'SOW:Gettysburg' is quite interesting. I have only had time for one MP game and actually did better in that than I have in the SP and tutorials. Sounds as if you have or are well-along to having a nice group of players for it; I'll have to re-visit their site and catch up with the news especially on the Napoleonic mod.