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KS Napoleon Mod Version 1.33 and KS Supplemental Maps 1.23 Has Been Uploaded

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Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:05 pm

My recollection was that I TC’d all battalions of the 3-btn guards brigade. I think I had the brigadier un-TC'd to give morale bonuses but am not sure. The skirmishers were charged and withdrew and that was when I got the msg from brigade that it was withdrawing.

The skirmishers were useless after that but I was able to advance the un-engaged guards battalions. They didn’t see much combat. I definitely saw “detached” markers against all three battalions.

The SK unit being charged and withdrawing – is that event enough to exhaust/collapse the unit? If so is that a new change? I don’t recall this happening before. They were ~560 strong and had lost ~60 men at that point and caused ~300 losses on the enemy so were doing well. Why did they collapse just from being charged?
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Post  Uncle Billy on Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:30 pm

The skirmishers had already lost 70% of their organization when they were charged. The retreat afterwards put them well below 75%. They then failed their organization check and withdrew.

If the other two btns. were detached, then they must have been designated as battery guards. They definitely were not detached as part of a general brigade withdrawal due to disorganization. If they were, you would have had no control over them and they would have moved away from the enemy. Since they were detached, the brigade commander thought he was only in charge of 1 btn., the skirmishers. He then sent you a msg. that he was withdrawing his entire brigade. That was correct, since he only had 1 btn. under his command.

I have also added a designation to units that says "Guard", when they are on guard duty. That should help clear up some confusion.
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Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:03 am

No, the two guards battalions were not detached to guard the guns, they were TC'd and that is my issue with the mechanism. The game code sees TC'd battalions as detatched which it should not. It shouldn't count Guarding battalions as detached either.

The only units it should count as detatched are those that have suffered cohesion collapse.

I would think its very easy to have the AI know how many battalions it has at game start and to know how many have suffered cohesion collapse. Deduct the second value from the first and do a calculation. The brigade withdraws once the threshold is reached. I think that is all that is required, no need to have any TC or not TC'd factor enter the calculation.

Can the mechanism be adjusted on that basis please? That way all playing styles are catered for with no bias either way.
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Post  Miko77 on Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:12 pm

I would think its very easy to have the AI know how many battalions it has at game start and to know how many have suffered cohesion collapse. Deduct the second value from the first and do a calculation. The brigade withdraws once the threshold is reached. I think that is all that is required, no need to have any TC or not TC'd factor enter the calculation.

That's the additional variable that I suggested - yes... it would have to be updated... because if it's not then with 5 battalions brigade you could have 2 battalions disorganised and other 3 routed/dead and your brigade commander would still not withdraw... If the variable can deduct surrender/routed battalions then it should work fine... and Kevin willing to implement it Very Happy
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Post  Mr. Digby on Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:47 pm

Surely surrendered and routed battalions count towards brigade cohesion/withdrawal? I can't see the code having any meaning if they don't.

So units that have "collapsed cohesion" and should count towards the calculation of whether a brigade commander withdraws his brigade from combat are those 1) routed, 2) surrendered and 3) below whatever cohesion threshold Kevin has coded in.

Battalions 4) detached, 5) guarding and 6) TC'd should NOT count towards/be factored in as absent towards brigade cohesion collapse.

A TC'd unit that collapses should stay TC'd... its not going to be of much use I wouldn't think. Trying to use a TC'd collapsed battalion should be like trying to get a TC'd cavalry unit to move closer to the enemy.

I think we need to completely remove the TC'd / not TC'd status from the whole function of brigade collapse. It needs to be irrelevant in order to be inclusive of all playing styles.
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Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:44 pm

It shouldn't count Guarding battalions as detached either.
I disagree. The guard units are no longer part of the brigade. The bde. commander cannot use them for battle operations. As far as he is concerned, they are not part of his brigade.

No, the two guards battalions were not detached to guard the guns, they were TC'd and that is my issue with the mechanism.
If that is true, then the bde. commander did not send you a message saying he was withdrawing his entire brigade.

There are only 3 ways for a full battalion to become detached.
1. The player detaches it himself.
2. They are detached by the bde. commander to guard a nearby battery.
3. The bde. commander detaches it in order to withdraw it for reorganization.

Your situation could not be number 3 since you retained control of those two units and used them to attack the enemy.
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Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:52 pm

But are you going to fix the problem? I'm not interested in playing the mod again until this is corrected.

The game's mechanics must apply equally to players who TC units and to those who do not TC units.

Units detached for guarding purposes are not lost, they are detached, safe and performing other duties. The brigade commander would know that. He knows they are not lost. Yes the brigade commander may not have control over them via the AI system but they are fully functioning and performing active duty. Its an entirely different military situation to a unit that is collapsing and close to leaving the battle, so there needs to be a distinction between the two.

Perhaps you could allow detached+guarding units to count as part of a brigade but detached units do not. Perhaps the problem lies in using the "detach" function and still calling it "detached?"

As a division commander (player) I can TC the detached guarding units and order them back into the battle, and I often do this, over-riding the AI's choice of which battalion(s) to use as battery guards, to assist that brigadier which is why I feel it is wrong to exclude them from the brigade unit count.

This is yet another reason not to count them as detached for the brigade cohesion calculation.

Once again you are focussed 100% on the AI un-TC'd set-up and that is different to how other people play the game. You need to take your "my preferences" hat off and mod the game in a way that is not prejudicial to other styles of play.

I appreciate all the hard work you do on the mod Kevin and I appreciate that without you there would be no KS Mod, or only a very basic one, but it *is* the Kriegsspiel Mod and not the Kevin Mod and changes to it ought to be agreed by ALL members of the KS group. There are only 6 or 7 core members so if there is 1 objection to a proposed change it should not be implemented. Also please propose changes rather than simply doing them, that attitude bothers me as well, the changes and updates should be a group decision. You attitude is divisive and breaking up the group.
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Post  Miko77 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:14 pm

I disagree. The guard units are no longer part of the brigade. The bde. commander cannot use them for battle operations. As far as he is concerned, they are not part of his brigade.

But the battalion can be reattached or player could just TC this guard unit and use it in the battle as Martin says.
So the Brigade status seem too fragile/chaotic... I like the idea of a brigade pulling back but we must agree that this system requires adjustments and maybe taking into account battalions that are routed/surrendered as well?
Btw. what happens if player manually detach all battalions? would that make Brigadier confused as he has no battalions under command?


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Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:50 pm

Btw. what happens if player manually detach all battalions? would that make Brigadier confused as he has no battalions under command?

I don't manually detach but I do TC and according to the results I'm experiencing that's the same thing, which is the crux of my argument. Detached =/= collapsed cohesion. Its the reason we're having this discussion. Its the root of the problem. I can have an Austrian 9 battalion brigade, TC all of them, park 8 of them on my main line with my guns and take 1 forwards and it collapses and the brigade commander withdraws his entire brigade because the collapsed unit auto-un TC's and the brigade commander now has 100% of the units under his command collapsed. Its nonsense and completely broken.

Its why I'm so adamant that this section of the code needs to be fixed.
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Post  Miko77 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:12 pm

I can have an Austrian 9 battalion brigade, TC all of them, park 8 of them on my main line with my guns and take 1 forwards and it collapses and the brigade commander withdraws his entire brigade because the collapsed unit auto-un TC's and the brigade commander now has 100% of the units under his command collapsed.

Not anymore. After your last battle Kevin changed the condition on which the brigade disorganisation check is triggered. Now you need at least 2 disorganised battalions.
It's still not great but in situation you described the brigade commander would not withdraw.
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Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:35 pm

So a brigade of three battalions can sustain a far higher percentage level of cohesion loss than one of four? A 3-battalion brigade collapses after 66% losses while a 4-battalion brigade after 50%. That doesn't work.

What is wrong with the extremely simple calculation of comparing the number of collapsed battalions vs the original number and withdrawing the brigade when that %age has reached a threshold value? Its simple and doesn't need any consideration of what is TC'd and what isn't and what is detached and what isn't. Its literally a no-brainer that this is how the calculation should be done: present losses vs original strength.

Say the withdrawal threshold is 33% collapsed units so here is the way it works (orig. brigade strength vs number of btns with broken cohesion):

1 : 1
2 : 1
3 : 1
4 : 2
5 : 2
6 : 2
7 : 3
8 : 3
9 : 3
10 : 4... etc

And that's it. Easy. Forget who is and who isn't TC'd. Forget who is and who isn't detached guarding guns or serving drinks or whatever they are doing. Just starting strength vs 1/3rd of the starting strength in battalions. Or 1/2 or 2/3 or whatever fraction you want. If you wanted to be a bit more subtle you could count the number of men in the brigade instead of battalions and do it that way. That would be much better in fact.

If the game code won't allow such simple calculations to be done I'll be very surprised.
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Post  DumpTruck on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:00 pm

For clarity of what is happening: Does a Brigade commander still take the test for broken TC'd battalions? Example: If I have a 4 battalion brigade, TC 1 battalion and that battalion becomes disorganized. Does this battalion count towards the Brigade commander's number of healthy/unhealthy battalions?

What I end up doing a lot is putting a brigade on Hold at All Costs and then TCing 1 or 2 battalions from it to do my specific bidding. Perhaps it might be a work-around or solution instead of TCing all of the battalions if you put the brigade commander on Hold At All Costs and let him keep his brigade but effectively with orders to do nothing. That way even if he counts the TC'd battalions when they get disorganized he still has two of his own to balance it out?

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Post  Uncle Billy on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:05 pm

I don't manually detach but I do TC and according to the results I'm experiencing that's the same thing, which is the crux of my argument. Detached =/= collapsed cohesion. Its the reason we're having this discussion. Its the root of the problem. I can have an Austrian 9 battalion brigade, TC all of them, park 8 of them on my main line with my guns and take 1 forwards and it collapses and the brigade commander withdraws his entire brigade because the collapsed unit auto-un TC's and the brigade commander now has 100% of the units under his command collapsed. Its nonsense and completely broken.
You are incorrect.
Case 1: If the 8 btns. are all detached, the bde. commander will send a message saying he is withdrawing his entire brigade. His entire brigade consists of 1 btn. The other 8 are not included.
Case 2: If the other 8 btns. are TC'd, only the 1 btn. withdraws.
Case 3: if some of the 8 btns. are detached and the rest are TC'd, only the 1 btn. withdraws.
Case 4: if some or all of the 8 btns. are detached AND TC'd, only the 1 btn. withdraws.
Case 5: If none of the 8 btns. are detached and/or TC'd, only the 1 btn. withdraws.

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