Campaign Update 11/8

Hays has let me know that he has improved the ability of the OOB spreadhseet to handle the outcome of New Market consistent with my preferences. This includes the transfer of captured guns and application of battle results.

The new sheet will have to be tested, but if it works, we will have the flexibility to apply slightly more subjective results to battles, as was historically the case.

There is something in there for everybody to like.

We'll keep you posted, I'll issue reports as soon as I have data from Hays. We will likely resume activity next week, I will begin by sending reports to all commands.

Neal

Its now come to my attention that the Union infantry that captured the Rebel guns were routed minutes later, so I think there's still a good argument to say these guns are not lost by the CSA or recovered off the field by the USA. Neal? Stefan?

Which CSA brigade caused these Union units to rout? I think Flashman or Mitra may have some input here.

I have good information that the regiment rolled the guns downhill during their escape.

Mr. Digby wrote:Its now come to my attention that the Union infantry that captured the Rebel guns were routed minutes later, so I think there's still a good argument to say these guns are not lost by the CSA or recovered off the field by the USA. Neal? Stefan?

Which CSA brigade caused these Union units to rout? I think Flashman or Mitra may have some input here.

Oh goodness....

And I don't even have replay working correctly for some reason. It's on my end, not the replay file.

Why don't you just ask whether the regiment routed or not Digby?

It routed.

I know that the guns are all Friedrich has, and I'm sorry for him, but there is a way of preventing that.

Did you see me complain on the forums that he stuffed two batteries in the lines of infantry? CLEARLY a breach of regulations.
No. I mentioned it once ingame, and went on to captured half of those guns.

They couldn't be recaptured because they surrendered; it wasn't a "glitch" in the game mechanics denying the CSA to recapture them; it just happens sometimes. I don't see the problem at all.

I see both sides here, I really do. We could go back and forth on this all day.

1. The guns should have been pulled back or defended.
2. Captured guns aren't going to be rolled anywhere. I've rolled actual Civil War cannon about a battlefield during my reenacting career. It's a pain in the assbackside, especially downhill, of all things. They weigh a ton to a person pushing them (or therabouts).
3. The guns could have been spiked, and so on.

From my perspective, I have thrown the Confederacy a bone by applying a "draw" result rather than a "loss" result, which I truly feel is fair. At this point, however, to continue Monday morning quarterbacking the game is counterproductive. This is not intended to criticize anyone, I'm just putting this out there before anything escalates.

If I destroy the guns, then you can never recapture them. If the Union holds them, then they have to manage them with untrained crews and protect them. It's not the end of the world to see the guns lost. The guns can be recaptured.

Both sides really did emerge from the first battle in good shape. Both sides not only fought well, but walked away with their pride intact.

The guns go to the Union. I'm sure they paid for them with the lives of their men.

As for Friedrich, there will be plenty of units for him to command. He can even command my brigade if desired.

Take those guns back, fair and square, is my best advice.

If I were the Confederate side, I'd be giving you all a fine punishment followed by a fair trial, then a week of non-stop drill and strategy planning sessions at night, to ensure you're ready to win back your laurels on the next engagement.

Let's channel our energy into the next move rather than the last.

Cool?

-Neal

For the record, I feel Digby's question is fair, but I want to move forward, not back to last Saturday.

The good that comes of this is I learn how to avoid such issues moving forward.

Clear agreements, good friends!

Cool.

Much like American professional football. . . I think both sides should have three replay flags they can toss during the entire length of the campaign. And then Neal (or someone who understands how to use the replay function) can watch the replay and make a ruling either for or against the challenger.

For example, Major Byrd throws a red flag during the battle and charges Friedrich with breaching the regulations by stuffing two batteries in the lines of infantry. Neal (or someone who understands how to use the replay function) watches the replay and sides with Byrd and rules that Friedrich will have a big C branded on his forehead or foreskin (if he has any) -- his choice. Of course when I say his choice I'm speaking of where the brand will go, not whether or not he has foreskin: obviously his parents' choice.

Or, Cleburne throws a red flag during the battle and charges sspoom with having his lines stacked. Neal (or someone who understands how to use the replay function) watches the replay and rules against Cleburne and as punishment for making false charges, Digby isn't allowed to post on the forum for three days.

Neal, please contact Mitra. It was his brigade that was in the position. He isn't an active member of these forums and isn't attached to either side. At least please get the reports from the players who were there before you make your decisions.

I was completely unaware of the tactical situation around those guns until yesterday when another CSA player informed me of what had taken place.

Neal, by all means make an umpire ruling on these games but do please ensure you have as much information as its practical to gain before deciding.

I think our problems are compounded by having guest players drop in for the games, like Mitra, who does not participate here and who probably has the full facts but hasn't disclosed them to anyone.

I understand this campaign is very much a test bed for ideas, procedures and rules. That's another lesson to learn - no guest players, every player fully on board in the game at all times so that they have vested interests in how they play and every player submitting an AAR within 48 hours. The umpire then judges the outcome of the battle on the game replay plus the AARs. So if a player does not submit one or his AAR lacks critical detail then its his problem.

That seems a fair process to me.

Re Mitra: I'm very happy that Mitra did show up and there was enough time to brief him for the battle. I would like to include him on the CSA OOB. He could take up McKinneys brigade, as Col Shiloh has abandoned the campaign.

Re Guest players: Well, we should try to avoid having Guest players, campaign players which drop in without knowing the briefing of the battle or having campaign players fight for the "wrong side". But I guess we will have similar problems in future battles. Given the available players at a defined time slot and the number of brigades from the OOB.

Re AAR: What's the idea, should each player post an AAR in the sub-forum of his team? Or send it to his div/corps commander?

I rather like the idea of guest players.

As well as giving us more flexibility in staging battles, their presence may help to prevent a strong feeling of 'us' and 'them' developing between the teams. While the both teams should quite understandably play to win, and develop an esprit de corps, there is the danger that inter-team rivalry becomes too intense as a result.

That's the way I see it, although I appreciate that others may not share this view .

Martin (J)

I saw the guns being captured.

I would have thought a fair thing would be to roll a D5 (if 5 guns were "captured"), and the result is the number that the Union keep, the rest were successfully destroyed. In any case, I don't think we can say we recaptured any.

If a 6 is rolled, reroll, etc.

Neal, thanks again for all your efforts. You have the patience of a saint.

Jeff

Here is the cut and dried to this

1: Confederates lost a battery of guns ( 5 of)
2: Union manned the captured guns and the CSA failed to counter the capture either because the guns surrenered (white flag in game ) or beacuse the guns were abandoned and captured by union troops either results in the union having 5 new guns at thier disposal.
3: Digby is not happy that said guns are now available to the enemy which would have happened in real life no matter what anyone says to the contary its irrellivent that the regiment that captured the guns got routed from the field before it could capture the last gun from the battery.
4:If the CSA had attempted to recapture the manned guns then they could have been used in the next battle for the CSA to my knowledge this did not happen.

Ultimatly Neal is the Umpire he determines the outcome of the battle dictated by the victory points/locations given within the briefing.

To my knowledge the object of the battle was to control the town at the end of the time set in the game by the Umpire.

The Union controled the town and held it at the end of the battle they also captured 5 guns.

Result regardless of my standing within the Union ranks is inpartial is a victory to the Union not a draw and Neal called it correctly i will conceed that the Union suffered more casualties in gaining the Victory conditions some 800 mens killed wounded or ran away but that is irrellivent within the grand scheme of the battle.

You could look at it like this
Union scored
Victory condition met:

1000 points

Guns captured 10 points per gun

50 points

casualties MWK -10 per 100 = 2750 say so -275

Union scored 1000+50-275= 775 points

Confederates scored

Victory condition met 0 points

Guns captured 0

Men MWK(missing wounded killed) 1950 so -195 points

Confederate score is -195 the result still stays the same Union Victory.

It may sound confusing but what i am trying to show is a mathmatical way to determine the battle.

Blaugrana wrote:Neal, thanks again for all your efforts. You have the patience of a saint.

Jeff

Very much agree!

Martin (J)

They were never captured in the OOB, they were never attached to the Union side at the end of the battle. That's how we play, if you don't attach them to a command, you don't posses them. Therefore they routed, whether they were recoverable by the CSA or not would be the question.

The problem with that is that neither the CSA or USA OOBs allow captured guns to be attached to a battery on your side because the artillery and infantry are in separate divisions. This is why the guns vanished using a white flag of surrender when they were chaarged and taken, rather than being crewed by the Union infantry and used against the CSA.

Our OOBs are rather lacking in this respect and reflect later war practices.

Another lesson learned in this test campaign.