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hammurabi70
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Post  hammurabi70 Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:52 pm

I have seen reference that in 1965 Pat Condray translates Le Kreigspiel into English. Does anybody know anything about this? Is it the French construct as shown on Wiki Le Kriegspiel or a reference to the German original?
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Post  Martin Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:21 pm

I've come across his name as the author of a series booklets on various armies involved in the War of the Spanish Succession, and the Great Northern War, published under the name 'Editions Brokaw'. I've a feeling that he's based in the USA. I wasn't aware that he had translated any kriegsspieel stuff though.

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Post  Druid_ian Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:05 pm

Martin wrote:I've come across his name as the author of a series booklets on various armies involved in the War of the Spanish Succession, and the Great Northern War, published under the name 'Editions Brokaw'. I've a feeling that he's based in the USA. I wasn't aware that he had translated any kriegsspieel stuff though.

Martin

Found this http://www.intonet.co.uk/~rblack/rules.htm
Societe de Collectioneurs de Figurines Historiques

Le Kriegspiel. These rules were written by Pierre Foure and published in Paris in 1964. Pat Condray of Maryland published an English translation later in that same year. The English language edition ran to 36 pages. No details of period or style, but we’d love to hear about them in any language.



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Post  hammurabi70 Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:24 pm

Druid_ian wrote:Le Kriegspiel. These rules were written by Pierre Foure and published in Paris in 1964. Pat Condray of Maryland published an English translation later in that same year. The English language edition ran to 36 pages. No details of period or style, but we’d love to hear about them in any language.

Thanks - bit wide of the mark then. Suspect jocolor
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Post  Tim Carne Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Kriegspiel by Debord

This game is well described on this site

http://r-s-g.org/kriegspiel/about.php

Superficially it resembles Waddington’s Campaign

http://www.toymonger.co.uk/GamePages/campaign.htm

(apologies in advance if there are rules about links to commercial sites – I have no connections or interests, these are the best photos I can find on the web)

Some rather intellectual background can be found here

http://www.notbored.org/clausewitz.html

Interesting the original Hellwig game (sometimes referred to as the Brunswick Kriegsspiel) has a similar concept dated to the 1780s with the book showing a publication date of 1803.

http://www.strategiespielen.de/johann-christian-ludwig-hellwig

The digital copy of the original can be found in the Braunschweig Digital Library

http://rzbl04.biblio.etc.tu-bs.de:8080/docportal/receive/DocPortal_document_00002905

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Post  MJ1 Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:11 pm

Some great Google fu at work...

Thanks for the links

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Post  Tim Carne Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:35 pm

Found a bit more.

It looks like there was a French wargaming group in the 70's that developed a hex based figure game and named it Le Kriegspiel.

This game seems to have been used as the base for Faits d'Armes

See http://miniwarfigs.blogspot.com/p/le-kriegspiel.html

and

http://miniwarfigs.blogspot.com/search/label/Faits%20d%27Armes

I have also seen mention of Pierre Foure as the "father of the hexagon" in some Google searches.

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Post  hammurabi70 Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Many thanks; seems to be a distant derivative of the original Kriegsspiel and it seems to link to the reworked French one I mentioned.

Some interesting links you have found with a lot in them.

Tim Carne wrote:I have also seen mention of Pierre Foure as the "father of the hexagon" in some Google searches.

I fear starting a debate on the origins of the use of hexagons in wargaming! Wink
affraid affraid affraid
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Post  Tim Carne Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:18 pm

I have been digging around some more on the internet and found the following

Le jeu de strategie by Firmas-Peries. Looks to be a derivitive of Hellwig.

Have a look at the figures on pages 140 to the end. If the squares wew hexagons this would be a format familiar to modern boardgames.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k74139p/f1.image.pagination.r=.langEN


Mehler 1783

This seems to be another chess style game (there is a folded grid towards the end and some drawings of figures

http://books.google.com/books?id=2sIUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA121&#PPP1,M1



Examples of a KS game (in German)

http://www.ingenieurgeograph.de/Unterrichten/Kriegsspiel_Torgau_1813/kriegsspiel_torgau_1813.html

http://picasaweb.google.com/Gontzenbach/Zeilitzheim_2009_11_Kriegsspiel_Belagerung_Torgau_1813#

Discussion forum

http://www.napoleon-online.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1657.html

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Post  hammurabi70 Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Tim Carne wrote:Have a look at the figures on pages 140 to the end. If the squares wew hexagons this would be a format familiar to modern boardgames.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k74139p/f1.image.pagination.r=.langEN

Looks good but I think wargamers do not HAVE to use hexagons! Very Happy


Tim Carne wrote:
Mehler 1783
This seems to be another chess style game (there is a folded grid towards the end and some drawings of figures
http://books.google.com/books?id=2sIUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA121&#PPP1,M1
Examples of a KS game (in German)
http://www.ingenieurgeograph.de/Unterrichten/Kriegsspiel_Torgau_1813/kriegsspiel_torgau_1813.html
http://picasaweb.google.com/Gontzenbach/Zeilitzheim_2009_11_Kriegsspiel_Belagerung_Torgau_1813#

What rich seams there are to mine but my language skills are not up to it! Shocked
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Post  Tim Carne Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:53 pm

I am not a hexagon "bigot" - this is just a way of creating a frame of reference and also a comment on how contemporary game structures may not be so new. Very Happy

As to the language barrier, the German ones at the end have pictures and the French one I have pointed out the figures so at least you get an idea of the game.

Regardless of the detail it looks clear that from 1780 there was a form of wargame as a form of military Chess being pushed as an educational tool. I speculate this was to educate the amateur princes who would be commanding the professional Generals of their era. If nothing else it would establish common terminology and some expectation around military matters.

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Translation Empty Europe’s Earliest Kriegsspiel?

Post  King_Rufus Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:21 am

The history of professional war gaming is usually understood to have
begun around the turn of the 18th to the 19th century and mainly
associated with the Prussian Kriegsspiel, with chess-based predecessors
traceable down to a game published in 1664 by Christoph Weickmann.
Yet during the early sixteenth century, a Hessian nobleman, Reinhard Graf zu Solm,
published a game of cards named Kriegsregierung that was intended to be used both for
preparing young noblemen for military decision-making and for
supporting command and control in the field. It thus may well have been
the earliest professional war game of the post-medieval period.


Thanks to David C for the link to this article, which can be downloaded in .pdf from the site and is well worth reading.
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