Today's Game July 19th

Today's game uses the 1807 Polish campaign OOB.  For a change, I thought we'd play the Russians.   Pepe may even get some leyb-gvardii kirasiry to play with.

General'nyy Kavalerii  Leontiy Bennigsen (27963 Inf.  2870 Cav.  96 Guns))

 General'nyy leutenant Dimitri Dokhturov (6540 Inf.  800 Cav.  24 Guns)
   General-Mayor Karl Baggovut (4140 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   General-Mayor 2-ya brigada (2400 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   General-Mayor Peter von der Pahlen (800 Cav. 5 squadrons  Avg.Exp. 8.0)
   Podpolkovnik 12 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   Podpolkovnik 1 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 5.0)

 General'nyy leutenant Prints Gallitzin (6216 Inf.  725 Cav.  24 Guns)
   General-Mayor Ilya Alekseeva (3111 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   Polkovnik Ogarev (3105 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 4.7)
   General-Mayor Dolgorouky ADC (725 Cav. 5 squadrons  Avg.Exp. 6.0)
   Podpolkovnik 17 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   Kapitan 20 svet artilleriyskaya batareya (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 4.9)

 General'nyy leutenant Nikolay Tuchkov I (7278 Inf.  675 Cav.  24 Guns)
   General-Mayor Rachmanov (4053 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 5.2)
   General-Mayor Graf Nikolai Kamenski (3225 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 5.5)
   General-Mayor Dolgorouky ADC (675 Cav. 5 squadrons  Avg.Exp. 5.0)
   Podpolkovnik 34 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 5.0)
   Podpolkovnik 6 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 5.0)

 General'nyy leutenant Müller-Zakomielski (7929 Inf.  670 Cav.  24 Guns)
   General-Mayor Evgeni Markov (4764 Inf. 9 battalions  Avg. Exp. 4.9)
   General-Mayor Grigori Engelhardt (3165 Inf. 6 battalions  Avg. Exp. 6.0)
   Polkovnik Paul Graf Pahlen (670 Cav. 4 squadrons  Avg.Exp. 6.0)
   Kapitan 2 loshadi artilleriyskaya batareya (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 4.9)
   Podpolkovnik 35 tyazhelaya artilleriya batarei (12 Guns   Avg. Exp. 6.0)

more than double the guns to last night's fight - PER DIVISION!

PS: very Russian deployment of troops right there... I wonder if they could point the way to Moscow - even with a map...

Too bad the column is not pointed directly at the objective. Then the CinC could just give one order, forward, and be done. That would be Russian.

indeed - none of my confusing arrows needed... they always confuse things so very much for some people...

After yesterday's experience I will always be of the opinion; "We need MORE cavalry".

This corps looks very weak in cavalry.

it's rather strong in comparison to yesterday... the British outnumbered us 2:1 in cavalry and maybe more in their rating...

Just so you know, in the 1807 OOB, the French are well represented by heavy cavalry. Good thing Russians are use to hardship.

A cuirass can't deflect a 12lb cannon ball. Bring it on.

I LOST POWER ... Oh well I was going east then south then east on attack ... Roland I think I stalled a bit before going forward again ... Not quite the shock troops you had hoped for ... Looking forward to how it turned out.

I kept sending messages to you, not having realized that you dropped... was already a bit stunned why nothing was being executed of what I had ordered

as we speak I amanaged to withdrwa most of your brigade - the guard cavalry cut it up pretty badly...

Yeah well I lost control of my attack before I dropped. Clearly nine battalions went beyond my limit at this stage. nor did I put myself in a good position to direct it. On the positive note I did actually recognize the French flank when it presented itself.

why so negative? I think you did an excellent job in the initial assault - both recon, deployment and attack and I believe the entire division lost steam once we were faced with this awkward mixture of guns, cavalry and infantry...

We demolished the enemy in the end though our left and centre had to withdraw all the way back to Wellington's ridge N of Goumont because they were attacked by a fresh enemy division on that flank. That forced me and Roland to fall back as well and the French then took Goumont and stormed up the hill but the Russian guns stopped them. The game ended just as they were all melting away but technically it could be a French win as they retook the objective from Roland.

It was a fantastic battle, very fluid and spectacular. Its great too when Kevin designs a scenario then gets his ass whupped.

Ok - I think then what I need to get used to is the delay in response during the actual fight in HITS vs my GCM experience. That and the variety of flags. So sitting in the middle of it all with a potpourri of banners made me feel less aware than I actually was, then. The Frenchies were quick to react tho.

I put a couple battalions up front that were completely exhausted. Not by intent. They must have traversed thru rough terrain to get to the launch point. One of them sat there in front of a French battery shooting in effectively and not willing to charge.

Was a lot of fun, as usual. Excellent battlefield comms, Roland. Thanks! I was always aware of your picture and intent.

Yes, it was a tragic outcome. First I was mauled by mounted grenadiers who were part of a very coordinated multi-arm attack. Just when it seemed the left was stabilized by the appearance of our guard cuirassiers, another French division came over the hills to the east lead by mounted carabiniers. In the end I had one battalion and four guns left. I blame Pepe.

I think the fatigue penalty is a bit too severe.

It was a good fight.

There is definitely a bug with fatigue for skirmish units at the moment as SOWWL makes them run everywhere. Our "modding team" is working on a solution for this.

If you march your troops by roads though they will remain 100% fresh. Also halt and rest them whenever you can. I had Mike as my subordinate brigade commander in my division and I saw he marched across country quite some way. When my division arrived W of Goumont to deploy, my brigade was fresh, while he mentioned to me that his was tired.

Cavalry can be quite resilient and is quite capable of a gallop for a while to run it to a threatened sector without tiring it.

Its really down to careful management. Being a fairly cautious player I'm always fine with sitting still and doing nothing for a while to rest the men. Yesterdays fight helped as I found myself as the corps' centre and had only to stand still and make sure I remained connected to the divisions on left and right. I don't know how fatigued Roland's boys where when they arrived but they marched easily 3 times the distance my division did though the replay shows he used roads all the way.

Finally we want the mod to fatigue troops at a moderate rate to stop players running their men everywhere and making grand tactical marches across country which wasn't historical. Armies would march by roads until the last possible moment when they'd deploy off them to form battle formation.

My men had no problem of fatigue at all - I arrived on the field, having used the roads - and so did Charmead. We were all rested and ready to go....

I can only support Digby's statement to the full - also including the known "running skirmisher" issue. It fatigues them very quickly, if you don't take care of it personally, but otherwise it is perfectly fine as is.

Men should get fatigued of marching in formation cross country - and when fighting more so. Combat is very tiring - back then, just like today.

I had an infantry brigade in reserve west of La Haye Sainte and just moving them crosscountry to support Kevin NW of La Belle Alliance, maybe 600 yds. they arrived exhausted. I think that's too much. But maybe it is an odd case.

I like the battalions getting exhausted if they run.  In the old mod, before Kevin made that change, it was way too easy to close with the enemy.

I marched using the road until ordered to move west to connect with Digby, about 600 yards.  By the time I deployed, most of my battalions were near exhaustion. I think that's a bit harsh.  At least increase the recovery speed.

The upside is that my exhausted troops continued to inflict casualties on the enemy -- unlike the GCM where exhausted troops are useless.

what formation did you march in cross country?

I had an Bde under AI control advance about 300 yards to meet the enemy - they did so in - line and were less 1/3 tired by the time they engaged, which I found quite alright...

The fatigue values have not been changed in the mod. What is different is that nearly all the ground except for roads on the Waterloo maps carry a fatigue penalty. Only the hilly map is similar to the ones we are used to playing on. We can easily change the Waterloo maps to be in keeping with all the rest if we choose.

The other issue, the one brought up by Martin, is the running. The AI causes units to run much more than they did in the old game. Skirmishers almost always run. This is not so easy to fix because the behavior is coded in multiple parts of the AI. Some of it may even be in parts we do not have access to.

We'll have a better idea of the extent of the problem when we start using the old maps. I am planing to use one this weekend.

I don't know what all the fuss is about... who needs infantry anyway...

WE HAD THE RUSSIAN GUNS!!!!

I had made the assumption that the WL AM map had increased fatigue factors due to mud but not the PM map. If troops really are becoming heavily fatigued by 1/2 mile cross country marches on ground that ought to be dry-ish, then yes, perhaps we need to scale back this virtual mud a little. It would be good to retain a couple of 'muddy' maps though. Presumably when NSD issues it, the Wavre map will be the same.