Scourge of War Waterloo

Digby,

I think the most important aspect of the game is that it is stable in MP.

The rest of the problems should be fixable once Kevin gets the SDK and can start modding.

Artillery is very weak.  Controls are strange, but an improved toolbar shouldn't be far away.  No doubt MANY changes are needed to make the game even close to the playability we now have with the KS Nap mod.  But that won't happen overnight.  We must be patient.

I'm pretty confident that in the long run, the game will be better than the present KS Nap mod, and that's saying a lot.  Other than the squares issue, which has no fix in the old SOW engine, the KS Nap mod is really awesome as far as game-play goes.

Kevin simply needs to get to work!

Hopefully almost all parts of the game will be mod-able.

Yes it's a modder's nightmare dream.

Fair points, Mark and I take what you say as correct.

I am just a little perplexed at how many balls NSD have dropped when they could have made a good game great.

I've got a pretty optimistic feeling about the game.  There are a few good improvements - and the rest are likely to be tweakable.

I think It'll feel a lot better once we've upped skirmishers, cannon, and dropped the quality of militia troops (we had an interesting situation yesterday.. chevaliers of the guard routed by Landwehr.)  

Canister is still pretty effective, but needs to have the range upped, I feel that the range of muskets needs to be lowered.

Some way of including skirmishers in brigade formations would be a major thing too.  

The sprites /flags will sort themselves out as the grogs get to them I imagine - especially if we can import from the old mods.  

Martin - Roland suggested yesterday that you'd found a way to make full battalions skirmish - how did you do this?

edit - the other thing is more formations - and trying to get the AI to approach lines in column and deploy into line, with morale check. That would be nice.

Let's face it, stock SOW:GB isn't a great game. My opinion is that NSD is great at making a great engine, but they are not very good at making the actual game-play great. Without the work of modders like Kevin and Garnier and all those who help them, we probably wouldn't be playing SOW:GB.

SOW: Waterloo will be the same way.

I agree with Mark. The game engine is a solid base for creating a great one. The advantage we have is that we spent nearly 2 years developing the KS Nappy mod. That gives us a real head start in fixing many of the shortcomings and errors we've seen. Best of all, with the enhanced modding capabilities we will have with the new game, we won't be dependent on the whims of NSD for getting changes made.

The major obstacle we have with regards to HITS play is the UI. We can fix the toolbar but the arrow placement on the ground is not moddable. At least I haven't found a way to do it yet. Norb was obviously catering to the mainstream crowd with this. To sacrifice one style of play for another was a very poor decision IMO, but one we're left with. I suggest we lobby NSD to give us the ability to raise the arrow off the ground as was done in the old game.

In happier news, I've been able to import the maps, sprites and OOBs from the old game. The flags can also be used, but require some adjustment in the csv file.

MTG wrote:I suggest we lobby NSD to give us the ability to raise the arrow off the ground as was done in the old game.

Hi Kevin. Can you please elaborate a bit more on how that would work and help with HITS?
KR
Stefan

Hi Stefan, nice to hear from you again. One of the largest problems we've found in playing HITS is that the positioning arrow cannot be seen when the camera is low. More specifically, the direction the arrow is point cannot be seen at any distance. I made a different arrow, using one from the old game, which helped very little.

The problem is that the arrow is flat on the ground. In the old game, it would change its position as the camera moves up or down. Playing HITS, the arrow is not on the ground, but slightly raise and angled towards the player. That feature is gone now. The old gfx.csv file had a levitate value that would raise this off the ground. I don't think it works anymore in this game. If you've had the opportunity to play this games in HITS, I'm sure you've seen the problem.

If we could import the old, yellow, raised arrow that would fix most of our problems. This flat-on-the-terrain green arrow is a really peculiar decision from Norb.

dropped the quality of militia troops (we had an interesting situation yesterday.. chevaliers of the guard routed by Landwehr.

Well... My take on things is never say never. Maybe rather than dropping militia values we need to increase horse grenadier values or how cavalry behaves generally. My one game using cavalry and seeing the AI use it left me thinking it was very timid indeed and did some dumb things like charge artillery, then stop part way to sit still and eat canister. Likewise when facing infantry.

I can see the improvements NSD have put into the cavalry/infantry interaction system... it just isn't quite there yet I don't think.

If a square is properly formed and made up of motivated infantrymen, it doesn't matter how good your attacking cavalry are - they won't get in. If militia are well supported, fresh and with a general nearby giving a bonus I have no problem with them holding off the best cavalry in the world; the issue is that no cavalry should melee a steady square; their fear check should make them break off and fall back. The horse grenadiers of the guard should be the boys to know this better than most and they should retire. That is where the game is probably breaking down, and not the militia being too tough.

I've put the old arrow back into my version of the new game. It only make a marginal difference because it is drawn flat on the ground like the default one. We need the ability to raise it above ground level or tilt it up. I haven't found a way to do that.

I followed Leffe's suggestions and tried the "domination" version of the campaign which indeed leads to some maneuvering....

I decided to detach brigades to act as garrisons to preserve my main fighting force - the AI apparently opts to send out divisions of some sort....


I found a lot of battles where the enemey withdrew from the fight due to me being superior - which is fair enough.... in turn the one battle I actually got to fight was with Reille's Corps alone (I have yet to find a way to "create" new forces - I can detach units - but can you form a new command? like a "wing" or in French "l'aile"?)

I had to capture the western farm of the map "deux farmes" - I got onto the road immediately and started to move towards the objective... when I was about to close in I deployed my troops (which although TC'd formed line formation on the road -  still using road movement... with the enemy still far off) and wanted to attack...

guess what happened: yup - the battle ended... not sure how to win this if the fight is over before it begins - only way of actually fighting in this battle would have been to run my troops on the road - because I launched the attack at the earliest possible convenience...

I hope this is nothing like the stupid battle restrictions of 60 mins in Total War - only to ensure that the people playing are always under pressure - or worse - one is worried they would not fight a longer battle than this....with a map half the size and starting in sight of the enemy - fair enough.. like this??? NO WAY)

another thing I saw was an issue with squares - again supporting Kevin's suspicion:

a unit routed "towards" the enemy - so far, so good - ridiculous but we have seen that before...

the enemy cavalry charged it with one squadron and got amongst them while still "retreating" - causing over 150 of them to die...

once the flag reached the ordered retreat point I finally had control again and ordered the bataillon to form square, which not only caused the one squadron to route immediately but a 2nd one that had adjoined the charge as well. Losses stopped immediately as well and several cavalrymen were killed within seconds...

which really only leaves one conclusion - the effect of forming squares is immediate - cause the sprites certainly hadn't formed anything but a uncontrolled mass with cavalrymen amongst them...

quite contrary to what we've been told...

Roland wrote:which really only leaves one conclusion - the effect of forming squares is immediate

On the other hand, last night while we played the big MP Waterloo scenario, the AI-controlled Scots Greys managed to get into and seriously damage a line battalion of mine after the form square command had been received but before the square had been fully formed. Once the square formation was completed, they held their own, and the Greys were sent packing shortly thereafter.

It's also worth noting that while the AI did some silly things, they were quite adept at using combined arms advantages on a few occasions. The AI-Brits positioned a squadron practically on top of friendly infantry in line perhaps 100 yards from my advance battalion. When I formed into line, it was like a red flag in front of a bull for the AI cavalry. Then, forming quickly into square, the infantry line and enemy guns all cut loose on my unfortunates. I remember thinking at the time that a human player would not have been able to do it any better.

I heard even in the single player campaign the AI is always in Brussels. So I'll keep holding off till it's modded or playable in HITS at 2yds. It's really weird considering they're trying to take a market share from NTW the game really should have been super polished, with AI and the campaign working properly at the very least. If I wanted a game for the masses I would just play NTW, so they really should consider the niche communities like ours more if they want to KEEP their niche since they will never be as big as Creative Assembly. To me it sounds like buy this engine for $50, so until Kevin can make the rest of the car, I'll wait. Sounds like Kevin should get a cut, haha.

I Like Baldwin's approach to it too.  I really had not heard anyone going totally goo goo over it.  I hope this game does not bring an end to the current KS mods.

Baldwin wrote:I heard even in the single player campaign the AI is always in Brussels

Yes - I wrote that earlier - this happens if you select the "capture Brussels" campaign mode... I wonder why that mode is even in there tbh.

if you select the "domination" one - you get some maneuver - but with the problems I have listed above...

I can now load the KS oobs and sprites without any errors. I still have flag issues to correct, but I don't think that will be too large of a problem. Later next week, we can probably try out the first version of KS Napoleon Mod II.

I think we can safely say that it took you way too long to get things going....

next time - GET A MOVE ON!

I am VERY pleased to report that the Austrian march music comes through, loud and clear. Let the rejoicing begin!

edit: tired of futile discussions

Since NSD has assured us that no effort was spared in the meticulous research of this OOB, I'm sure they got it right.

We need those French, German and British officers shouting "form square!" (translate as applicable) instead of those silly bugle calls. No-one used bugle calls in this period except cavalry and light infantry.

I do hope the cool national marching music will soon be back with us. Seeing the Foot Guards advancing to the tune of "The British Grenadiers" brings a lump to my throat.

Good news Kevin, on the maps, sprites and flags. Norb should indeed pay you for all this final completion work you are doing to his game.

I played with Reille's Corps today I can report that some of his units are better than the young Guard

 Prince Jerome Bonaparte commanded a division in this corps and AFAIK historians and  wargamers alike agree his division was possibly the best line division in the 100 days army.

Some of his units may well have been equivalent to La Jeune Garde in skill, elan and training.

I'd still rather see this however:

Old Guard = 9
Middle Guard = 8 or 7
Young Guard = 7 or 6
Line Regiments = 6, 5 or 4 depending on who they are.

The music is in the mod. I actually enjoy the bagpipes the most. I won't be able to get rid of the bugle calls until I can mod the toolbar.

Late breaking news: The flags are in.

From recent readings, my general opinion is that several units of Young and, indeed Middle Guard, were composed of men recruited from a variety of sources other than veteran units. National Guards and Corsicans come to mind but don't quote me.

For Young guard units of the later period it was the experience of the officers that was the key factor, with men of limited experience but a higher 'esprite de corps' and training. Their superior firing drill being quoted. Perhaps the '100 days' was not sufficient time to get these men up to scratch.

Some of the line and legere units in the Waterloo campaign had a solid core of 'veterans' and it seems quite justified to me that some should have stats reflecting this.

It will be an interesting project researching the oob and everyone will have their own interpretation of evidence.

Its good to hear that they have not been afraid to challenge mainstream views on unit ratings.

I expect that the oob has been well researched. It will take time to challenge this.

For the time being, Mike's portraits can't be put into the mod.  The new game uses a different system than the old.  They are all placed on one sheet.  Not much expansion planning there.  It will be quite a job to combine all the separate sheets and re-order them.

On a more positive note, I have a small mod which makes it easier to see the positioning arrows. I'll pass it out at the game today. I assume it will be at the usual time of 20:00BST?