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Cavalry is too powerful

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Post  Uncle Billy on Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:41 pm

You two can adjust the square movement speed yourselves. The value is in column K of drills.csv. There are two square formations, one at line 241 and the other 2144. You can test out various speeds. The number in col. K is added to the base walk or run speed of that unit class. For most infantry that is 4 and 8.

The bunching up was likely due to the size of the battalions. A 1,000 man unit uses all 200 sprites. I wonder if those Austrian battalions really formed those long lines?
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Post  risorgimento59 on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:53 pm

Nice battle and noticed a few interesting new things on Ehey's streaming.
Some weird ones too like @ ~2h.
Restricted AA (stream), buildings, wood fences, graveyard, infantry and grenadiers a chavel in support.
Still the two French batteries never stood a chance against Ehey's cav.
He sacrificed an inf btn in front and that was all. The guarding unit was also crushed retiring in square.
Guard units and falling back into squares are among the most brillant things introduced by the mod so far and a great step forward imho.
But they really can't save the guns of AI in the long run against humans.
They really seemed to don't catch the combined threat and didn't exploit any spatial resource available to counter that in anticipation either...scratch

Cavalry is too powerful - Page 2 YjS2PAT
Then you see this, hearing a familiar voice in background saying "tell them they don't make use of defensive terrain!". queen
And all your own convictions fall apart. lol!

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Post  DumpTruck on Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:36 pm

I think the lack of defense of their cannons was because at the end I had broken their other brigades so the remaining defenders were surely at a moral loss and possibly disorganized. To their credit those Chasseurs a Pied scared away half of my heavy guns and had me sweating for a few moments. Fortunately I had lots of infantry around to answer with.

I didn't get much chance to truly mess around with the squares. The enemy had a good artillery position on me so I wanted to keep my men out of squares when possible. I did find out just how slow they move and can confirm that a square as very vulnerable when moving backwards being charged in the rear by French chasseurs, but they would have been in trouble even if they were stationary in square.

My cavalry definitely was tired more often. I fought my 3 regiments against the enemy's 2 and I had to rest 2 of my regiments for 45 minutes before I could use them again safely. I was fortunate in that I was able to shoot most of the enemy heavy cavalry off the field rather than have to fight them. I also found my infantry to be particularly cowardly that battle. I had a brigade break after losing a few battalions to enemy cavalry and guns combo, but in general they just seemed quite flighty. Maybe giant battalions and giant brigades were to blame for some of that as I found 8 battalions in a brigade to be more cumbersome than it is destructive. Typical Austrian performance I suppose.

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Post  Miko77 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:33 am

You two can adjust the square movement speed yourselves. The value is in column K of drills.csv. There are two square formations, one at line 241 and the other 2144. You can test out various speeds. The number in col. K is added to the base walk or run speed of that unit class. For most infantry that is 4 and 8.

Yes Sir,
Tested with 2 values... -0.5 and -0.45
I find that -0.45 might be a sweet spot... but maybe another .05 would be even better - let's see, maybe Martin tested with inf in line values or much closer to it...
for Austrian infantry (that's the one I ran the test on) the major issue seem forming square - even from column it takes a while as their columns are quite long...
now... I didn't run test on units that take casualties which of course will have extra effect, however what I noticed, after formed square and moving it - what matters and can contribute to longer "reforming" time is changing the direction... so let's say, you formed square and started moving north.. then stopped after 100 yards... you probably experience very little delay in forming square after battalion received order to stop..
however.. now when you start moving, let's say east (90 degrees to what was previous direction) and you stop moving after couple yards then you'll get a more considerable delay as all the sprites would have to wheel to the new direction. Bare in mind, it's still very quick in compare to changing between column to square and vice versa... so overall this is improvement...

The bunching up was likely due to the size of the battalions. A 1,000 man unit uses all 200 sprites. I wonder if those Austrian battalions really formed those long lines?

I read about it and only thing I can remember is that it was an issue when giving orders - French battalions were well within voice range of Battalion commander, while Austrian would struggle with this... I don't know how many ranks they formed line with... maybe in practice it was 3? or maybe even 4? worth checking out some sources...
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Post  Grog on Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:47 am

Interesting discussion on overpowered Cav. I'm in favour of reducing their effectiveness somewhat and actually brought this up myself a little while ago.
I'm not too in favour of making squares move that quickly but a slight firepower increase to stop them getting TOO close.
My main issue has been the ability of large cav brigades overpowering a local fight, beating the enemy , then moving quickly onto the next fight without realistic rest time. Also, I think reducing cav running speed to simulate the difficulties travelling cross country due to ploughed fields, uneven ground, ditches and small holdings that are not represented on our maps. Light cav, I would penalise most, as heavies are closer to normal. Cossacks, I would keep fast. I'm not experienced using Cossacks but would be interested to see if they would benefit too much from nerfing the others.
Horse stamina recovery remains the main issue for me. Knowing where, when and how much of your cav command to commit is the key. Rested, she should still be powerful and capable of catching infantry off guard, Quatre Bras is a good example of this.
I'm also of the opinion that a unit charged frontally in line or even column, should have a slighty greater chance of repelling the charge than is the case at present but that is another debate......😉


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Post  Mr. Digby on Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:08 pm

I would be in favour of nerfing our Cossacks quite a bit. Historically they seemed to spend a lot of time on the flanks or periphery of the battlefield and often would not commit to serious action. Their main value was strategic as a screen and harassing force vs weaker detached enemy forces. I would even be fine if we simply removed them entirely from our OOBs because they were not much used in major combats. If we do a petits guerre scenario they'd be perfect, but now that some of our games are up to the levels of 2 corps a side, or even corps vs corps having them in the midst of the combat feels incorrect. If they must be there they really should be down at the level of Spanish cavalry in terms of combat effectiveness. They always were a sort of organised marauder troop type and if there wasn't a good prospect of personal plunder in a situation they rarely risked themselves.
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Post  Miko77 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:43 pm

No Heavy Cossacks?
On more serious note, Yes, it looks beyond ridiculous when regiment of Cossacks takes on elite French heavies and beats them back frontally because of their better stamina - sure, they should be able to outrun medium/heavy cavalry but that's just about it...
Happy with removal of them from OOB.. or having optional OOB without them so generator wouldn't pick any...
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