KS Mod - units retreat without suffering any losses

I recently began playing SOWWL with the KS mod activated, and have been noticing some odd behavior for certain units. What happens is as follows:

1. The units will advance normally and register as "engaged" in their status, but will not return fire.

2. Units will retreat after suffering no losses in that particular engagement, and with their morale at nearly 100%.

3. The units will regroup and this process can continue.

I have recorded a savegame of the "Papelotte" scenario with KS mod, for which this behavior was observed to occur. However, I have also observed this behavior in the "Picton's Rascals" and "Hessian Fury" scenarios so far.

I would appreciate information on whether this is working as designed for KS (and if so, why this behavior is occurring).

Good afternoon your grace and welcome to the KS forums.

Are you using any other mods other than the three KS Mods?

Are you using the KS versions of the stock scenarios, or are you using the stock scenarios as supplied?

What stance did the brigade and division commanders have?

Yes, welcome to the forum. Also, what formation were they in and were they facing the enemy?

Hello,

I am using the three KS mods, as well as a small mod to improve unit marker placement and a “mod” consisting of the renamed stock scenarios in a subfolder under “Mods”. The “Stock Scenarios” mod is what I was using to play the stock scenarios with KS activated.

The unit was in Line formation and facing the enemy. I was the brigade commander, and was given orders to attack.

I have a savegame of this scenario, but I do not think it is possible to post files on this forum.

Links to files, such as Dropbox can be placed in posts.  Although I think you have to have been registered on the forum for a week before you can do that.

A replay wouldn't help.  What I would need is a Save Game at the point you see the problem.  If you have the problem again, save the game at that point and post a link to the file.  I'll have a look.

Kevin, I think we might need the same mods as well. The

...“mod” consisting of the renamed stock scenarios in a subfolder under “Mods”...

sounds like a local set up that doesn't follow the instructions you issued a few months back regarding playing the stock scenarios with the KS mod. I have been searching through the threads today but cannot find the fix you issued about running the stock scenarios with the KS mod.

Is there an alternative way to play the stock scenarios with KS? The only way I know of is to copy the scenario folder to “Mods”, so that the stock scenarios are sorted under “User Scenarios”.

On a different note, my issue appears to be similar to the behavior mentioned in this thread (“ https://kriegsspiel.forumotion.net/t1979-whats-wrong-with-the-guards”). This might offer some insight into its causes.

That discussion was about player perceptions of expected performance from certain units vs game performance which isn't a game code issue. My own comments in that discussion I now take back, having seen a very wide variation in possible results.

The game as supplied by Norbsoft does produce a huge swing of random results - and I do mean HUGE. One day your cavalry will slaughter everything before them and the next day they will run like scolded cats. The player often sees no logic in this but I am confident that it is all down to the game code and its wide variable of "dice rolling". If anything I think Norbsoft's range of results might be too wide. I think, within reasonable parameters, troops of a certain quality should be relied upon to behave in certain ways but the game can sometimes throw up really surprising extremes -both good and bad.

Can you repeat the game played and observe a different reaction?

Would a replay file be of use, if only for illustration purposes?

No a replay won't tell us anything. We would need a save game. Judging from your first post you see this problem quite frequently. If so, just replay one of those scenarios. When you see the problem, save the game and post a link so it can be downloaded.

I took a look at the Papelotte saves you sent. I did not see anything amiss. The troops were retreating due to a couple of factors. 1. there were battalions stacked on top of each other. When this happens, one or both battalions will retreat. 2. A btn. retreated which caused a morale drop in a nearby btn. and it too decided to fallback. These effects are all part of the KS mod. They reflect historic reactions to such events. I suggest you read the KS Mod Manual. It will probably answer many questions you have about observed behavior. You'll find it in the Manuals sub-folder of the KS Napoleon Mod.

You will find that very little about what you learned from the stock game behavior will be of any use to you when using the KS mod. While the base game is a great vehicle for getting 19th century armies to move and fight on a computer, the actual battlefield behavior is very lacking. That is the void that the KS mod has tried to fill.

Perhaps Norbsoft took Tacitus a little too much too heart?

“Even the bravest men are frightened by sudden terrors.”
— Tacitus

Its more the case that Norb didn't take that into account. The KS Mod attempts to - though it can be frustrating and puzzling behaviour at times.

Thanks for the in-depth explanation; I think I understand that what I need to do differently is space my units out more to prevent overlap, as well as keeping a reserve.

Is there any known way to change the current LOS algorithm? Especially in city battles, units will not acquire each other as valid targets until within 20/30 yards; can this be altered? Or is the flag-flag LOS part hardcoded?

The LOS code is part of the game engine, so it is not available to us for modding. For city fighting, the best thing I have found is to let the brigade commanders handle it. Just keep feeding in more troops as the situation demands.

Kevin you said:

“For city fighting, the best thing I have found is to let the brigade commanders handle it. Just keep feeding in more troops as the situation demands.”

I think it should be made clear that when there is city fighting to be had in scenarios of your design, there is actually no hope. Thus the BEST option is simply to torch the city and move the brigades elsewhere, such as a large meadow or plowed field.

what I need to do differently is space my units out more to prevent overlap, as well as keeping a reserve.

I find that when I command a division I end up fighting it on a quite narrow frontage. If I have two infantry brigades I use one plus my artillery up front and hold the second about 200yds-300yds back to replace the first one as it begins to get brittle. If I have three brigades I often stack them three deep. If you have other AI divisions on your side try to fight quite a way away from them since they have no understanding that your troops are there and will wander all through your units, which can cause havoc as well as mask your guns (in the KS Mod artillery are blocked by friendly troops within 150yds to their front and at the same or a higher level; the stock game has "magic" canister and roundshot that can fire right through your own men to hit enemy which we thought was silly, so we got rid of that).

If I have cavalry in my division I'll keep it even further back until enemy cavalry show up and them bring it forward to face off the enemy's cavalry but responding retroactively and not proactively. I find one of the best defences against AI cavalry is not your cavalry, but your infantry in squares. Its when the AI sends in a mixed arm force that you really need to think hard and act fast.

I think it should be made clear that when there is city fighting to be had in scenarios of your design, there is actually no hope. Thus the BEST option is simply to torch the city and move the brigades elsewhere, such as a large meadow or plowed field.

Advocating a war crime? Tsk, tsk. Although there have been times when I wished we had a few carcass shells available to do just that.