Regular Monday SOW HITS games

I like the dusty hot look to that image, looks very Wild West! It just needs Clint Eastwood and we're done.

It looks as if there are 6 of us for today's game, which is not bad as several Monday regulars are working today, or on vacation.

As I mentioned previously, 6 is probably better than 10 for this particular game, as it will limit scouting by the Sioux and Cheyenne to more realistic levels.

We have 4 main roles:

* Crazy Horse - Oglala

* Gall - Hunkpapa

* White Bull - Minneconju

* American Horse - Northern Cheyenne

Each of the above has a camp to defend and non-combatants to protect.  There are a number of other tribal leaders present (eg Spotted Eagle of the Sans Arc).  These lead hunting parties of substantial strength, which are visiting their friends & relatives.  They have somewhat fewer warriors but more freedom of action.  I will take one of those.

See you in T/S, ideally shortly before 19.30 UK time.

Martin (J)

If there's still room, I may pop in to check out this zoo. ;-) I'm more than happy with one of the smaller commands/hunting parties, if available.

To get in the mood, here are a few pictures from an earlier visit to LBH Battlefield (originally it was "Custer Battlefield" when I first went there as a kid):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rwberg53/sets/72157648181306901/

And then, just last year at the Buffalo Roundup held annually in the nearby (by Western standards, at least) Black Hills of South Dakota:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rwberg53/sets/72157647769645728/

Of course Ron.  You're always welcome

You'll need the updated Little Bighorn Mod v1_3 for this game.  This is the *only* mod you will need for this session.  Unusually for this mod, you should set your vegetation at 100% and map objects as ‘best’ in the options screens.  Link to version 1_3 here https://www.dropbox.com/s/epienz8n97y30mp/KS%20Little%20Bighorn%20Campaign%20v1_3.zip?dl=0

Nice photos.  I've always wanted to visit the LBH battlefield, and also the Black Hills. They do look beautiful.

Martin (J)

The mod description mentions also having Couriers & Maps activated with LBH lower on the list?

You guys should pop over for a visit. It would be my pleasure to host an expedition to Montana, the Black Hills and maybe Yellowstone with this crowd.

Well spotted! Yes it normally does, and we also normally wind down the vegetation & graphics settings on the standard maps too, in order to get rid of the buildings and provide a more authentic high plains feel. The Pipe Creek maps in particular seem to give the right 'look' when we do that.

But for today's game we are using a new map, specifically designed by Crikey for use with this mod, so we don't need to do either of those things. The new map is actually in the Mod, rather than in CouriersAndMaps, although it probably will included there eventually.

That is a very tempting invite. Thank you. It would really be a fun thing to do. Ideally, I would like to walk along Custer's route from Reno Greek through Reno's Hill and Weir Point to Last Stand Hill. Following Reno's Battalion would also be fun. Is that possible?

Martin (J)

Thanks for the clarification. That does indeed make it simple!

Yes, all of that is possible. It would be quite a long hike (as I recall it is 3 or 4 miles west just from the Reno/Benteen hill entrenchments to Last Stand Hill) -- and if done on or around June 25 the weather is nearly always quite hot. Still, it is well worth it. From the Reno/Benteen battlefield the view is obstructed to Last Stand Hill, so it is easy to imagine the confusion about what was happening to Custer. But from Weir Point (roughly a mile closer) it is just possible to make out where Custer's fight took place -- but still quite distant and indistinct. I recall concluding that Weir no doubt could tell big events were taking (or had taken) place there, but it would have been nearly impossible to determine what was really happening. It's one of the most haunting views on the battlefield.

Another amazing view (among many around the field) is standing on Reno Hill looking down the slope to the Little Bighorn river and trying to imagine how any cavalrymen at all managed to cross the river from the willows and scramble up the hill. An almost unbelievable feat under the circumstances. Regardless of where individuals come down on Reno's performance that day, it's difficult not to have sympathy for his plight and be in awe that he was able to save even a portion of his command.

Though the LBH battle is, in terms of participants involved, very small compared to almost any ACW engagement, it is truly one of my very favorite battlefields to visit. Maybe it's the lingering mysteries, or the large distances across the open plains, but it is easy to lose yourself in the event when there and mentally teleport back to that awful day.

Grandson has school today and sometime he has individual attention. If I get home in time I will be there.

If not enjoy!

Ron - interesting stuff.  Thanks again

Mike - hope to see you there, but I think we have to make you the last.  A most unusual move I know, but this scenario depends heavily on what the players do not know.  The ability to flood the area with human scouts is going to detract heavily from that I fear   .

Given it looks like there will be up to 8 of us, I'm going to quickly try and re-jig the scenario a bit, but there's only so much I can do.  I may also need to do more to limit initial recce.

Martin (J)

If there's 4 main tribal units could we give 2 players to each and not allow scouting beyond 250 yds of your nearest warparty?

Is there in fact any need for the Indians to go look around the map? It sounds like they can stay in camp and chill out.

Have heard from Steve who cannot now make it, so it looks like there are 7 of us.

I was actually thinking of something along the lines you suggest, Diggers.  I think it will work best if 3 of the 4 big fellahs each have a subordinate, who can scout on their behalf.  The 4th big man can scout as he wishes.

I'm trying to find a sweet spot between history, and leaving players sitting on their hands.  The communication and scouting limitations will only be in place for a player until he gets word of an enemy sighting, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Pending this, the 4 big chiefs themselves can busy themselves sending messages to their subordinate, checking out the position at their own camp and how defensible it is, detaching and positioning their non-combatants etc.

Historically, the Indians were almost invariably surprised on those rare occasions that the army found their camps.  not really surprising.  The Indians were not a regularly organised force.  And even if you know the army is looking for you, you cannot stay on alert week after week.

Martin (J)

Very fun game last night martin, thank you for organising it and making such a fun and very different mod.

Playing the Indians was quite strange, I was expecting the army to be a pushover but we were fought to a standstill. I had not realised the Indians were so limited with ammunition and of course once tired and without ammo they are useless. Those army infantry rifles are terrible as well. It took me several casualties just to gallop my braves out of their range when I'd had enough.

Are these the exact same troop stats we've used in our previous games?

I made a minimap for Eagle River and added it to the replay viewer csv, so you can watch the replay. Files are here. Just drop them in the main replay viewer folder and overwrite the csv.

For next Monday I'll rebuild my fictional Lace Wars co-op scenario. Fans of Charles Grant senior should apply early for places.

Doodle sign up.

Glad you liked it. My main concern was that it might be frustrating for the players, as you cannot 'command' in a normal sense. It would be possible to give the players more control by say including flags for each sub-chief, but I feel that's less historical (and also looks less good visually). As the battle went on, I certainly found it more and more difficult to make my warriors do what I wanted - which I feel is probably as it should be.

Yes, the troops stats are unchanged. I suspect with more experience we will get better at playing the Sioux. It was interesting that far and away our most successful commander yesterday was Spotted Tail of the Sans Arc - an AI controlled character .

You mention the ammo issue. Josh and I spent a while chatting after the game, and that came up there too. I limited Sioux ammo on historical grounds, but also because I thought it might encourage them to charge once it was exhausted. From something Kevin said recently, I'm not actually sure that's how the game works, and it may be that it just causes them to pull back out of range. It may be that I need to look at this again. OTOH it is again unchanged from all our previous games, and the AI seems to have little difficulty with it when it runs the Indians!

One thing I did do was beef-up the Army OOB for yesterday's scenario. The basic OOB was modelled on Crook's force in July and August, after he had been reinforced in the wake of Custer's defeat. So it included the experienced 5th Cavalry under Wesley Merritt and Eugene Carr. This was one of the better US cavalry outfits.

When it was looking as if we would have 8 players, I also added several other cavalry companies to ensure the players did not have too big an advantage. As it happens, I needn't have worried on that score...........

Looking forward to your Lace Wars scenario. I do enjoy the variety in the Monday games.

Martin (J)

I had noticed also that the AI Indians seemed to bring more collective wisdom and ability in handling their braves than we lowly humans. This was actually refreshing in a warped way. My own war parties were pretty much shot after the first big battle at the Oglala encampment -- which turned out to be the high-point of the day for my Minneconjou Sioux. At that point I believe I was up about 150 pts, but ended the day at even or a few points negative thanks to several fruitless assaults on the bold company of dismounted cavalry that ventured forth from the safety of the river bottom to rage on Martin & me. Our warriors just could not be convinced to carry through with any sort of attack at that late stage. Had I known that our "Cossacks of the Plains" were a "one & done" deal, I probably would've sent word back to the tribal elders to gather up the squaws, children and elderly and load up the travois for the trip to the Tetons after that first fight at the encampment.

Thanks again for a great experience. In the course of the day I called over my wife (who owns a paint horse) to the screen to check the graphics. She was both amused and impressed.

Palmer, I have never really ventured into the great plains Indian wars: I love the 7 years war period and thoroughly enjoy the French and Indian war (maybe because all of its battlefields are a couple of hours drive from me) but I've never read anything on Custer and such.

I was reading about the Weir point on Wikipedia after you posted it and the charges against Reno and Benteen seem to be pretty damning.

Any recommendation for a good book or books on the subject?

Many thanks

Hey Mark,
There are many good books out there. One of my favs is Son of the Morning Star by Evan Connell (http://www.amazon.com/Son-Morning-Star-Custer-Bighorn/dp/0865475105). It is well-written and, for my money, provides a good balance of background (including an excellent depiction of the Fetterman Massacre), traces the important characters and personalities, and goes into the aftermath of the Little Bighorn battle as well. And, unlike many books of the genre, covers events from both sides. Good stuff.

Thank you!

The officer drama in the 7th sure makes for interesting reading.

A very brief AAR.........

Before the battle, Crook divided his Wyoming column into 3 contingents. Standard practice when hitting ‘hostile’ camps, in order to confuse the defence and prevent escape.  



His main body moved SE directly to Eagle River, and the Hunkpapa and Brule had a tough time of it against the strongest column.  This was particularly so when the two US infantry battalions got into action with their ‘Long Tom’ rifles.  Chief Gall eventually decided to evacuate his non-combatants to the Minneconju camp for greater safety.  Meanwhile the Oglala and Minneconju fought their own battle against the aggressive 5th Cavalry which had advanced on the Oglala camp from the NE.  They did good work here against Crook’s best cavalry.  The Northern Cheyenne realised that their own camp in the S was not under immediate threat, and rode N to assist in the defence of the Hunkpapa camp.  They were then joined by the victorious Oglala and Minneconju.

This forced the army onto the defensive, but they held on.  As Ron says, one particular company - quite alone and totally surrounded - repulsed several Indian charges.  They eventually escaped as the Sioux and Cheyenne were by now tired and low on ammo.  

We called the game 10 minutes before nightfall.  Having just looked at the replay it’s as well we did!  At that very moment a strong battalion of the 3rd Cavalry were about to attack the Minneconju camp, which was by now quite undefended, and included not only their women, but also those of the Hunkpapa  

I felt the way things panned-out was authentic.  The initial Indian response was suitably haphazard, as their was no overall commander, no coordinated scouting, and no communication until the first army force was spotted.  Then separate battles were fought against different army forces, before the players were able to start coordinating.  All quite reminiscent of the Little Bighorn fight in fact.

Martin (J)

Down in the SE where 3rd Cav started was also a quite separate battle between them and the AI-led Sans Arc to which I (leader of the northern Cheyenne) was privileged to have a ringside seat, having ridden west in search of a nice fat buffalo for lunch and came across two paleface officers out scouting. I went closer riding over a low ridge and there before me down in "deadman's gulch" the brave 3rd cav was being slaughtered.

The Sans Arc were only 4 war parties (maybe 110 braves) but they hacked 3 of the 4 companies of the 3rd to pieces with vicious charges capturing them all. Only 1 company remained and I ineptly exhausted all 3 of Lone Wolf's war parties attacking it and still couldn't get it to rout or surrender! The AI definitely has an empathy with the native American mind that I lack!

I then went north with Lone Wolf's tired men and ordered Two Moon to bring his three war parties to near the Hunkpapa camp as well but ineptly ordered him north just as his men were swimming Eagle River so they turned and swam all the way up the river to near the Hunkpapa camp, arriving exhausted as well.

I started the game confused as heck but by half way through I'd got the hang of commanding "brigades" where the brigade commander and "regiments" have no flags. I was able to even TC and order individual war parties by the end, recognising them by their strengths, which was maybe a historical way the Indians worked. Having a brigade of 3 regiments all named "warriors" there was no other way to tell them apart!

In that way it worked well.

Here is the actual replay file BTW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mmda19jfglmmk7w/Battle_of_Eagle_River.rar?dl=0

Glad you’re getting into this, Mark.

I second Ron’s recommendation of Son of the Morning Star.  It’s written by a novelist and it shows.  A rollicking good read.  A quite reasonable movie was made out of it (which you can find on YouTube), and this had lots on the internal regimental strife, which played a part at LBH.  Be warned though.  If you do not like books which jump back and forth chronologically, this isn’t the one for you.  It’s also somewhat sensationalist.  Connell may be right in his suppositions, but he does sometimes go beyond the evidence.

It’s a bit long in the tooth now, but for the 1876 campaign as a whole the Centennial Campaign by John S Gray still has much to offer.  He works almost entirely from primary sources, and the stuff he includes has been quoted by all those historians who came after – typically in much less detail.  It’s written largely from the army standpoint, but he does do a good job in tracking Sioux and Cheyenne movements throughout the campaign.  He has a very detailed discussion on the vexed question of Indian numbers, both total population and also warriors at LBH.  This is heavily based on Indian agency and Army records.  Actually I don’t always agree with all of his conclusions, but the evidence he provides is by far the most detailed I’ve seen.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Centennial-Campaign-Sioux-War-1876/dp/0806121521/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430241322&sr=1-1&keywords=Centennial+Campaign

For the battle itself, you really need something more recent than either of these, as a great deal of archaeological work was done on the battlefield in the 1980s and 90s.  This has shed new light on how the defeat occurred, and also provided some corroboration for some of the Indian accounts which earlier works ignored or distrusted.  Here are two that I’ve enjoyed:

Red Sabbath by Robert Kershaw.  Written by an ex-officer, it focuses on the nuts & bolts of soldiering, and on the key decisions Custer made on the fateful day, in the context of the information he knew.  There is some coverage of previous Indian wars and of the early events of 1876, but the battle itself is the main event.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0711033250/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430241239&sr=1-1&keywords=Red+Sabbath

A Terrible Glory by James Donovan.  Covers the LBH in some detail but perhaps has more than Kershaw on the context of the campaign.  He also covers stuff like Custer and his relationships in more detail.  Similar to some of the areas covered by Connell, but with a less salacious style.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Terrible-Glory-Custer-Bighorn-American-ebook/dp/B00FOR2L2E/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430241209&sr=1-1&keywords=A+Terrible+Glory

Hope that helps

Martin (J)

Great game. Lovely graphics and map and the Indian camps were particularly nice.

I found things the same ad Digby, rather confusing trying to control multiple units with no flags (who all look the same)and with the KS settings not able to jump to units to see where they were. I think I had a couple of war bands on the wrong side of the river but despite various attempts to get them back they remained there. I tried withdrawing and reforming my line a couple of times to draw all the units together but by the time I figured out how best to control things my warriors were all exhausted and demoralised after too many uncoordinated attacks and would not respond well to orders. I felt I had no choice but removing my non-combatants from our camp as I felt I had nothing I could use to stop a determined attack on our village.

Very difficult, but hopefully a good representation as Martin said. Those "walkaheaps" were pretty deadly too with long range fire. I did ride up alone towards the pale faces a number of times to taunt them. Unfortunately I could not dismount and start smocking my pipe like Sitting Bull. Great fun yet again.

Thanks to all for making such a great game.

Must remember to change sprite ration from 1:1 though. Don't try Napoleonic Army level after a LB game. Took my computer days to recover from the strain!;-)

anything planned for next Monday? I should be ready for action again by then...

https://kriegsspiel.forumotion.net/t1373p160-regular-monday-sow-hits-games#13830

See the last line.

EDIT: BTW, Roland, did you get my e-mail reply about recommended Peninsular War books?

ahh - thanks a lot for pointing me towards the next planned game - I will be ready for action again on Monday - maybe even Sunday...

as for the email - thanks a lot - yes I did - I just sent a reply!

About time you crawled down that mountain you have been hiding on for the last 2 weeks! LOL