The future of our group

The origins of our group lay in the re-discovery and re-publication of the original Prussian officer-training kriegsspiel by Bill Leeson in the 1980s. He was soon joined by Arthur Harman and started running small games from his cottage in Hemel Hempstead. I arrived on the scene shortly thereafter, and for many years we continued on a sedate path as a very small group. Dave Stanforth also joined us after a while and ran games regularly. But times change. Bill being now quite elderly, retired from playing a few years ago. Both Arthur and Dave still join us for games occasionally, but have had to scale back their involvement in recent years due to the understandable demands of their young families.

Given this attrition, the situation has arisen where I have tended to call the shots, organise the games (even when I didn’t run them) and generally make many of the decisions concerning the group. According to one member I discussed this with recently (Mark actually ), this has left me as very much the face of the group. If that is so, it is not a situation I ever desired.

I would therefore like to open-up a discussion on where we might go from here, and I hope lots of you will free to contribute. I really do.

On the face of it, the group seems to flourishing as never before. We have more players coming to face-to-face games, more people running them, and an excellent venue to stage them. There are also an increasing number of posts on the forum, and we have recently drawn in several new friends through the Gettysburg pc game, some of whom are now among our more active posters.

My feeling is that it will be much healthier if the group becomes more democratic. Can we somehow involve more people in taking decisions, in setting the game calendar, running games, starting new forum topics, and contributing stuff to the website? I do hope so. The sharp-eyed & cynical will note that this could also mean that I do somewhat less. That too is something I would like to see.

All this may give rise to other questions. Should we retain the current rather informal organisation or adopt more of a club structure? Can we encourage more of a cross-over between pc-based games and our traditional kriegsspiels (maybe Digby’s proposed ACW campaign will provide such an opportunity)? Are the pc-games a blessing, or a threat to our traditional games? How do we best encourage others to join us?

Martin

Martin,

Just an of the top of my head reply to your points.

Firstly, to pick up on a key point, I totally agree that the active UK group, Bill's 'disciples' and those who have joined the happy band since the games stopped being played at his home, is in very good shape.

I would add that moving games to Little Gaddesden was I master stroke and has set up what you referred to as the face to face group wonderfully.

I also understand your position in becoming Bill's 'heir and natural successor' in game matters and that everyone has been happy to let that happen - volunteers, ten pressed men etc Not least because you've been doing a darn good job of it!

It certainly wouldn't hurt us to take a step back and see if we can do things in another way, particularly if you are now thinking 'hang on, how did this happen' in terms of the work it means for you.

All of which brings me to another point and that is the objective of this site.

Most of what's gone on here over the years and even this thread, revolves around a splendid bunch of blokes who I genuinely feel privileged to game with but its pretty parochial as a result. The tangential UK and international readers may find it interesting, much as you would a blog but what do they get out of it?

I guess what I am saying is there are a number of questions which we may choose to discuss here but for my two cents worth, I think we first need to sort out the relationships between the website, the Little Gaddesden Massive and the rest of the known universe and try to clear up the relative aims before we go much further.

In that regard the developments around Scourge of War are great and I would certainly think an ACW campaign using it would have an appropriate space here but I personally wouldn't want the site to become another SoW forum per se.

However, there are plenty of other things to include in our deliberations so lets hear some views!

David

Some background.

There used to be an e-newsletter called Kriegsspiel News.
Around 2004 we replaced that with a YAHOO group.
At the end of 2008 we changed to this group so as to have more of a forum website.

We can readily change if it is best for us.

Martin

Some interesting points so far.

I think there is value in discussing the site and forum separately to the future of uk gaming at gaddesdon.

The site is a great central source for all things Kriegsspiel and could be used as such. Contributions could be encouraged and anyone with useful links to other sites could signpost the rest of us.
The forum inevitably will trend and the current SoW threads are really related to a means of delivering kriegsspiels. As such i think they have value. There is room for a variety of Kriegsspiel styles and who can say what ideas will cross pollenate as a result. In short its a sign the concept is healthy and people are experimenting with how to deliver it. There will i think be room for all aspects.

As to gaddesdon.

Firstly your effort and enthusiasm deserve recognition in inspiring a wider group of participants.
There may be value in putting some structure in place whether formal or informal.
Knowing the dates of games for the year would help people plan ahead and ensure they can make events.
Getting individuals or, preferably small groups to agree to commit to putting on a game on the dates agreed in advance would also help spread the load of organising and publicity. i dont think we need to know what we are playing a year in advance but it helps to know when the game will be and who has committed to working on it. Any gaps can then be identified and willing hands co opted.
Managing the finance may be something that requires a little formality just to avoid any possible difficulties.
How do we achieve that? Probably by just doing it! We could agree a date for an 'AGM', possibly at the very pleasant pub in gaddesdon? Agree the key issues with the outcome being a clear plan for the year ahead with agreement on any tasks that need doing. Not sure we need to be any more formal than that but then I am happy to work infomally!

Once we have seen what other responses are forthcoming it may help to nail the key issues and move forward from there. I sense from you a desire to put things on a more structured footing and am in agreement.

Watching the thread with interest!

Steve

Seems the group is defining kriegsspiel as any historical wargame simulation that incorporates the limited information that an historical commander would face.

This includes suitable computer programs. The online aspect allows worldwide participation. That seems very good to me. These games have certinly enlivened this forum & increased the number of emails I get about kriegsspiel by a large factor!

The events at Little Gaddesten are practically limited to UK residents living within a reasonable distance & the occasional visitor, they are still valid & worthwhile, a great focus & chance for people to meet face to face & get to know each other.

I liked the you tube video introduction on the main site, a great initiative.. congratulations to the initiators of that. Look forward to seeing more.

All is going well, the only issue is that I get the vibe that Martin wants someone else to take more responsibility for organising, so can we have some volunteeers step forward. I've feel done my bit by establishing & running the kriegsspiel web-site for about 6 years

"All is going well, the only issue is that I get the vibe that Martin wants someone else to take more responsibility for organising, so can we have some volunteeers step forward. I've feel done my bit by establishing & running the kriegsspiel web-site for about 6 years"

Very perspicacious. You certainly have done your bit Richard, and I was remiss in not mentioning it in my initial homilly

Keep these thoughts & suggestions coming please ladies & gentlemen. This includes our new Gettysburgers.........

Martin

"Seems the group is defining kriegsspiel as any historical wargame simulation that incorporates the limited information that an historical commander would face."

I think thats a good definition which could serve as the basis for what we would expect to see advertised, promoted and discussed.

Steve

..." I get the vibe that Martin wants someone else to take more responsibility for organising, so can we have some volunteeers step forward."

I think thats also true, not sure that the forum is how we make that happen though. See my previous re us getting face to face and mapping the year out in rough with the means to discuss who does what. Some will be able to do more than others and tats fine.

Steve

Hello guys.

I joined you only very recently as part of the influx of new interest Martin had created with his 'headquarters in the saddle and courier system' Gettysburg online games. By co-incidence my name is Martin as well. I'm 53 and currently employed by Jaguar Land Rover though my background isn't engineering!

I feel a little reluctant to speak out here yet as I do not feel a part of the full group but I plan to come along to your next game on 4th March and hope to meet some of you.

I feel there is scope to involve everyone in the group in the American Civil War campaign I'm proposing - those who don't have the software can take positions of high command and be involved in the map level of the game, with those of us who play the multiplayer games fighting out the resulting encounters using the software. Right now though we are still held back by software crashes which are taking endless amounts of testing to understand and fix. This is a detail issue though, but I did want toi mention it to bring the computer players together with the face-to-face guys. I would hate to be involved in a group that was of two distinct halves.

So right now I have little else to say but will continue reading the forum discussions and look forwards to meeting some of you soon.

Hi Mr Digby, did not realise you were UK based and I do hope you manage to get along to the next session. You are equally welcome to comment as this is a time where I think we will better define what the group is and how it is organised.

I agree with Gun Boat on the approach and to help clarify there is a difference between the following: -

1. Web site http://kriegsspiel.org.uk/ the tasks for this as follows

• Needs yearly funding

• Needs events list updating

• Next Event Splash page Updating

• Articles adding as and when written

• Joomla Version to be updated to keep it to latest version

2. Forum which is free and just needs monitoring and maybe some new sub forums adding from time to time.

3. The Day events at the village hall which need the following: -

• Needs dates setting for 1st half and second half of the year

• Games organisers to run games on those dates, chasing the organiser to ensure all OK for event etc..

• Agreeing dates with Pauline / Hall

4. On the actual event / game: -

• The chasing of players / sorting out roles

• Money collecting and banking to pay for the hall

• Of course the whole running of the day umpires etc...

So currently the web site is covered off and the forum is pretty much sorted. I will at some stage pluck up the courage to upgrade the web site but it is potentially a big sink hole of time and I do not have current energy to take that on. I will by the end of the year have taken it on unless any one else wants to do the upgrade. (I do not want people to think I am taking it over if others want to have a go...)

The Events and the admin around them is where I feel we can pick up the strain from Martin but for this to happens I think we need to better define the group and what it is. Is it a club? If so lets put in place a simple structure so people can talk about it that way.

For me the quickest way is as suggested to agree a day when interested parties can get together face to face and hold an AGM (I know that sounds formal but all it is will be chat with some structure to it). I will be happy to attend and help but like Martin my help might not always be there and for any group to thrive ou need new blood getting involved and helping run it.

I had hoped Martin had done his bit in that respect by having some heirs to the throne in the wings.... (He even has a spare!!!)

Not sure if the young gents feel they want any more involvement than they have already?

Also not sure if we have heard from everyone?

MJ suggests that “we need to better define the group and what it is” and asks “Is it a club?”.

The response must be NO INDEED NOT, we far transcend the humdrum everyday of a club; we are a Chivalric Order. The Honourable High Order of the Reisswitz Monocle is of ancient progeniture. Our Grand Master is William Leeson, and our Marshal Seneschal is Martin J. The late great Paddy Griffith was an honorary Monocle Bearer. The Order is proud to retain honorary ambassadors in Bengal, Scandinavia, and the Americas.

The Rolls of the Order are in some disarray, having been damaged during innumerable sieges, but current Knights and Esquires of the Order include Messrs Harman, Stanforth, Sterrett, Henridecat, Gunboat, MJ and Binky Rees-Mogg. There is a proposal before the Grand Master for the admission to the Order of Norb Timpko, for services rendered to Kriegsspiel. A rather odd cove named Rufus also claims to be a Knight of the Order (and indeed a King) but records of his induction cannot presently be traced.

Knights are reminded that, on pain of excommunication, they may display their personal regalia only within the confines of Gribblers Club in the Strand, or at the Steeple Bumpstead summer fete. However, the Seneschal may on request grant dispensation to show what you have around Little Gaddesden too.

Sage comments, Your Royal Highness.

However, not only are your own chivalric claims in some dispute, there is also the question of that unpaid mess bill at Gribbler's Club......

I believe the Leveson Enquirey will be dealing with these matters in due course, so will say no more for the present.

Martin

A bit slow off the mark - carrier pigeon transit time? - but from over here, I'm not clear what duties you want to pass along. I can read this as being mostly aimed at trying to have somebody else organize the games near London; and in terms of organising local games, it seems to me that's an issue for people in each locality. (I could offer to coordinate games around London, but unless my place of living changes to the London area I'm likely not much use at it! )

And - echoing Martin - thank you, Richard, for running this site! In my opinion, this site is what enables the wider community to hold together.

James Sterrett wrote:A bit slow off the mark - carrier pigeon transit time? - but from over here, I'm not clear what duties you want to pass along. I can read this as being mostly aimed at trying to have somebody else organize the games near London; and in terms of organising local games, it seems to me that's an issue for people in each locality. (I could offer to coordinate games around London, but unless my place of living changes to the London area I'm likely not much use at it! )

I think that's right. For face-to-face k/spiels it has to be down to the folks who are local. I have been spending a lot of time in getting the Gettysburg side of things up and running, but it seems to have taken a life of its own recently, with others doing some sterling work. So I anticipate my own effort should diminish from here on in. As one example of that, I have cut down on the email circulars I was sending out, and am encouraging everyone to post here on the forum. There is also now a regular group of players who meet-up on weekdays, so I am no longer taking the lead in organising games. An excellent development

Mark has recently very kindly taken over some basic website and forum admin duties from Richard. Am not sure if he feels the need for some back-up on that front. If so, that is one task that need not be geographically constrained. But I'll let him pipe-up if he thinks that would be helpful.

You touch on another issue, which cuts across both face-to-face and online play. With the exception of your own occasional k/spiels held in the US, up until now most games of any description have been organised to primarily suit the convenience of a relatively small group based in SE England.

What can we do to change this, and allow the majority of the forum membership to experience the delights of our style of gaming on a more frequent basis?

- Could we in the UK, for example, encourage k/spiel groups to form and play games elsewhere in the country? Perhaps there are half a dozen members who live in the N or England for example, who would love to play, if only they knew of each others' existence. There might be a similar number in Texas for all we know.

- Why can't we set-up Gettysburg online games earlier in the day to assist our friends in Sweden, Switzerland and Germany (and perhaps even poor Neil in Bangladesh)? Heading in the other direction, perhaps we can do more to help Kevin in Colorado to play in a big game. Weekend games perhaps?

Martin

Hi all,
I'm one of the new gettysburgers from the continent. I like your group because you are very friendly . Me and the others from the RPS group prefer to play SOW using couriers. Your hardcore HITS sytle was new for me but I like the realism of it. This is the key fun for me in SOW: the immersion is great, you feel like you ARE a commander in an ACW battle. And it's even better in MP, it's almost kind of role-playing then.

Yes, I'm 1h before UK time, but 7.30pm is ok for me, earlier than 7.00 on weekdays wouldn't work for me. I don't know about weekends, are there any specific times?

I must admit I don't know yet what k/spiel is really about, must google it first. I like playing boardgames though, having more than 100 myself.

Regards
Leffe7

Glad you find us friendly - it's always been part of the ethos of our group. In my experience k/spiel does not appeal to the ultra-competitive types, and that perhaps helps. They find the lack of control makes them cross, and so does the inevitability of making mistakes when you’re operating without a clear picture. Well it’s a theory anyway

You're absolutely right about the immersion factor in G/burg. Playing the game with HITS & couriers is like nothing else I've ever experienced.

Re weekend games, perhaps we need to specify a day and a time and see what happens? That's essentially how the week-day games got going?

Re the original Prussian k/spiel, have a look at our website here http://www.kriegsspiel.org.uk/

Martin

We seem to have graduated to 7:30pm Tuesdays and Thursdays and I can be online Fridays, (and some) Saturdays and Sundays from about 6:00pm UK time. Friday and Saturday sessions for me will go on VERY late (if I'm there at all) since no need to get up early the next day and this allows me to play with the American guys longer.

Since we first started playing MP Gettysburg games, I have maintained a contact list, which I circulate periodically to the G/burg 'group' of players. The main purpose of this was to assist folks to arrange games, especially with other players in the same time zone, although it did perhaps also help to foster a sense of community in the early days, when we were few in number.

There are now almost 30 players on the list however, a lot of whom are frequent and active players. We have regular games during the week and have started running them on weekends too.

Discussion about the game, which at first took place among the group by email, is now mainly occurring on this forum, where G/burg now has its own section.

This has led me to wonder whether the contact list hasn't outlived its purpose? Am happy to continue with it, if folks feel it is useful to them, but it would certainly save me some time if I don't

Would welcome any thoughts.........

Martin

Martin wrote:This has led me to wonder whether the contact list hasn't outlived its purpose? Am happy to continue with it, if folks feel it is useful to them, but it would certainly save me some time if I don't Would welcome any thoughts.........
Martin

My preference is for just using the forum. Much less work for you, more open, old posts can be read by new members ...

And a huge thankyou for doing all the e-mailing, maintaining the list & for getting this thing going in the first place

I find the list sent via email to be useful. I use it when sending new maps, modded files, etc. to the other players.

Mr. Digby wrote:

Friday and Saturday sessions for me will go on VERY late (if I'm there at all) since no need to get up early the next day and this allows me to play with the American guys longer.

And we yanks are always happy to have Mr. "I'm dead again" Digby participating in the games. At least during the time he manages to stay alive.

Billy, the list we use for e-mailing things is actually just the active online player list which I think is around a dozen names. Its a kind of "everyone who has played more than once" list. The Gettysburg e-mail list is the longer word.doc list that covers everybody in the KS group who expressed an interest in playing Kriegspiel-by-computer. There are names on there I know such as ChrisG who are active in the GCM group but whom I've never seen play a HITS game with us, and others who have never played MP at all as far as I can recall.

Now that we have a stable couriers game perhaps we can begin to put effort into recruiting more players from this 'silent majority'?

Martin has done fantastic work to get the online Kriegspiel group to where it is now but I think we are ready to branch out into new areas; more recruiting -perhaps a new players night once a week to welcome newcomers and get their game installations up to the minimum standard we all use, and maybe a modding team, which I'd be happy to join.

Thanks chaps. Opinion seems to be that I don't need to do this anymore, so I will stop.

We are still occasionally being contacted by potential players btw. Have received a private message from one on the Norbsoft forum today. This apparently triggered by a post on HITS & couriers one of us made there.

Martin

Yes, he just came on the TS server and said hi, he has a friend too so that's two more new recruits, both Americans.

Mark made a very helpful post on this a while back, for which my thanks. Several of the issues he raised are still unresolved however.

It seems to me that it’s now a good time to revisit them, and we can then have any new approach (whatever that turns-out to be) in place before our autumn face-to-face game schedule. This gives plenty of time for things to bed-down over the summer.

MJ1 wrote:1. Web site http://kriegsspiel.org.uk/ the tasks for this as follows

• Needs yearly funding

• Needs events list updating

• Next Event Splash page Updating

• Articles adding as and when written

• Joomla Version to be updated to keep it to latest version

2. Forum which is free and just needs monitoring and maybe some new sub forums adding from time to time.

Jolly good. What would happen if you fell under the proverbial bus?

MJ1 wrote:3. The Day events at the village hall which need the following: -

• Needs dates setting for 1st half and second half of the year

• Games organisers to run games on those dates, chasing the organiser to ensure all OK for event etc..

• Agreeing dates with Pauline / Hall

4. On the actual event / game: -

• The chasing of players / sorting out roles

• Money collecting and banking to pay for the hall

• Of course the whole running of the day umpires etc...

So currently the web site is covered off and the forum is pretty much sorted. I will at some stage pluck up the courage to upgrade the web site but it is potentially a big sink hole of time and I do not have current energy to take that on. I will by the end of the year have taken it on unless any one else wants to do the upgrade. (I do not want people to think I am taking it over if others want to have a go...)

The Events and the admin around them is where I feel we can pick up the strain from Martin but for this to happens I think we need to better define the group and what it is. Is it a club? If so lets put in place a simple structure so people can talk about it that way.

For me the quickest way is as suggested to agree a day when interested parties can get together face to face and hold an AGM (I know that sounds formal but all it is will be chat with some structure to it). I will be happy to attend and help but like Martin my help might not always be there and for any group to thrive ou need new blood getting involved and helping run it.

I had hoped Martin had done his bit in that respect by having some heirs to the throne in the wings.... (He even has a spare!!!)

Not sure if the young gents feel they want any more involvement than they have already?

Also not sure if we have heard from everyone?

Good summary. I will go into more detail on events & admin in a subsequent post, so folks understand more about what each task involves.

I don’t think anyone has yet commented on the Mark's suggestions re ‘club’ and ‘structure’, other than tongue-in-cheek . It would be helpful if they did.

Martin

I threatened promised a follow-up post on the admin stuff I am currently doing. I am keen to pass any (or even all) of this over to volunteers as from say 1st May. Given that we do not normally start our autumn schedule until September, that would allow several months for folks to get comfortable with whatever bits they have picked-up. I will of course be happy to assist with handover.

At least one of these jobs (maintaining the inventory of maps & troop blocks) actually entails little work. But I include it for completeness, because someone has to do it, and if any of this stuff is needed on a particular day, that person either has to be at the game, or find a way of getting the equipment to whoever is running it.

There are more ways that one to skin a cat. One alternative approach to some of this would be for those running a particular game to handle all aspects relating to it (eg advertising, attendee lists, dealing with new players, bringing all equipment, plus beverages). So some of the tasks I have listed may not necessarilly be specific roles.

As well of relieving me of at least some of the work, I am hopeful that getting others involved will in itself encourage greater participation on decisions, and thus make the group more democratic. After all, at the end of all this, I will hopefully be in the same position as everyone else, so why should anyone give my views particular credence? A much more healthy situation .

It may be that we need to do more in that regard though. I note that we are yet to receive any comments on Mark's proposals re a more formal club structure.

Martin

1. Managing finances
(a) Keeping a record of monies in/out
(b) Income consists of the £5 per head game charge we make. That needs to be collected each game, and I am prone to forgetting (which is where Mark usually steps in).
(c) Expenses consist of the hall charge, tea/coffee/milk which we provide at games, some game materials, and any costs associated with the the website/forum.
(d) I send a cheque to Paulette after each game to cover the hall charge
(e) We are not talking big amounts here. We generated our first ever surplus last autumn, but there is currently a deficit due to: annual website/forum costs, printing & laminating maps, the purchase of new washable pens, and the fact that we had a number of folk who didn’t show up for the February & March games (mostly for good reasons, it must be said).
(f) Myself & Mark are currently funding the deficit, but am hoping about half should be cleared after the April game provided we get a good turn-out. I will take the hit for any remaining deficit before handing-over the finances, so whoever takes over can start with a clean slate.
(g) Negotiating hall charge fee. I come under episodic pressure to increase this, which I have so far managed to resist, although in truth the hall is good value.

2. Creating game schedule for spring & autumn (3 or occasionally 4 games for each)
(a) Recruiting organisers for each game and agreeing topics. Latter is very much down to those running the game, but I do try and get a mix of periods. I normally do this with targeted emails, and sometimes folks have ideas for scenarios which they share when we take a tea-break at our games. Sometimes it helps getting a couple of folks to put on a game together, and I facilitate that where possible.
(b) Booking dates with Paulette / Hall. By email & phone. Also checking time slots are available on any particular date - we are sometimes constrained on starting, or more usually, finishing times, due to other bookings. I do this in tandem with (a).
(c) Advertising game schedule. I do this by: forum newsletter (for which someone would need admin rights), by making forum posts, and by posting on the TooFatLardies YahooGroup. I also supply dates to Mark for inclusion on the K/Spiel News website.
(d) Steve recently suggested that it would be a good idea if we could get the schedule agreed much earlier than we have in the past – ie have the autumn schedule agreed by say early May. This seems like a good idea. This might translate into higher attendance, but does of course depend on folks volunteering to run games earlier. A bit chicken-and-egg, but it may be a good idea to at least get provisional hall dates booked much earlier, even in advance of this, which I know Paulette would be happy to do.

3. Individual games – before the day
(a) Advertising games. I seek background information (normally a couple of paragraphs) from those running the game, and advertise by: forum newsletter (for which someone would need admin rights), by making forum posts, and by posting on the TooFatLardies YahooGroup. I find that these don’t reach everyone, presumably because not all have signed-up to the forum and TwoFatLardies, so also use targeted emails to players who have come to our games before. Even some regulars don’t seem to be members of the K/S forum for some reason.
(b) We have found that the games need to be advertised repeatedly before you get a good idea of numbers. Normally about 4 or 5 times over a period of weeks. Why this is I don’t know, and it does make life difficult for those trying to plan the scenario, roles etc. As an example, for one recent game, we had virtually no takers in the fortnight after it was advertised. A week or two after that however, were were up to 14, of whom 11 showed-up on the day.
(c) Maintaining current list of likely attendees. This obviously needs to dovetail into the scenario design, so those running the game are sure they have enough players and umpires. It is a good idea to provide for some reserves too, in case some folks cannot make it on the day
(d) Assisting with providing maps & game pieces (not always necessary).
(e) Providing new players with map/directions to village hall, advising them re provision of beverages, need to bring their own lunch etc. Also answering any pre-game questions they may have.

4. Individual games – on the day
(a) Getting to hall early with specific game equipment, if required (umpire map, player maps, troop blocks etc). Also helping set-up tables and umpire map etc
(b) Bringing list of phone numbers, where I have them, so we can phone late-comers to make sure they are actually coming

5. Stuff I currently bring to most or all games
(a) Large pieces of hardboard to support umpire map (tables supplied have metal ridges around them so maps cannot lie flat otherwise)
(b) Message box (for courier messages)
(c) Message & order sheets
(d) Scrap paper
(e) Pens
(f) Washable makers
(g) Tea, coffee, milk & sugar

6. Maintaining inventory of game equipment
(a) Maps
(b) Troop blocks
(c) Dice, map markers etc