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Odd/glitchy AI

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Odd/glitchy AI Empty Odd/glitchy AI

Post  mrfox1918 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:23 pm

Hello all,

I have played SOWWL for a while and then found this mod not to long ago.  LOVE all the added content in so far as much as units/countries/maps...
However the AI seems bugged out... Weird things happen when for example I do a sandbox game. Is this mod meant for PVP only?  Odd AI actions include cav vs cav just waving at each other as well as cav vs skirmishers where they just wave at each other... from about 30 yards away or so...
Really love all the added content and some of the adjustments (like moving in square formation) however the AI just seems... durpy in comparison to vanilla AI. Ill post a screenshot for an example. Just wondering what the AI is doing.... long story short

PS
I am using the full collectors edition of SOWWL and the most up to date KS mod (properly installed)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2231663609

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Post  DumpTruck on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:32 pm

Cavalry can be tricky sometimes. Sometimes they charge when you dont want them to and sometimes they sit still when you want them to charge. If they're not charging and they're on a higher aggressive stance they might find the enemy in front of them to be more powerful than them and they wont engage. If there are squares near them they also might decide charging is a bad idea. Sometimes they'll just charge the square too, much to everyone's frustration. Also if the enemy is in the woods they wont charge into medium or dense woods.

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Post  Miko77 on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:49 pm

I am using the full collectors edition of SOWWL and the most up to date KS mod (properly installed)

Does it mean you've got all DLC's installed?
By KS mod properly installed do you mean you've neutralised DLCs too?

I'm not sure if DLCs affect AI but there could be some side effect.
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Post  Uncle Billy on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:50 pm

There is a manual in the Manuals sub-folder of the KS mod. It will likely have answers to a number of your questions as to why the AI does what it does. It is not "durpy." It strives to be historically accurate unlike the vanilla AI. It does not achieve that goal 100% of the time, but for the most part, it reproduces documented behavior.
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Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:28 am

As a long-time player of the KS Mod through all its versions I would say with 100% certainty that the KS AI is a LOT more advanced and realistic than the vanilla game which to my eye now seems horribly broken in so many ways.

There are still things wrong and a lot of these are things we cannot fully fix due to limitations in the original game and some areas of code we don't have access to.

A lot of our MP games are players as a team co-op vs the AI. Sometimes the AI does strange things (grand tactically that is, but so did actual commanders in history, e.g. Austerlitz, Jena-Auerstadt, Borodino, Quatres-Bras/Ligny [D'Erlon]) but sometimes it blows us off the field. I would definitely suggest you join us for an MP game to play vs the AI as part of a team. We're very happy to answer any questions you have about the mod.
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Post  mrfox1918 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:53 am

It just seems odd to me that 2 enemy cav units would just stare each other down 30-40 yards apart. Especially when they had to ride past each other to get into those positions. Also those same massive russian cav units just stared at french skirmishers about the same distance away just eating lead in the same battle.

I do not have the DLCs deactivated, did not know that was apart of the installation process.

I love all the added content this mod gives, it jus seems to me that the AI is just not acting right. Was really wondering if KS mod was a PVP only kind of mod set up?
I mean I've seen cav units just eating grape and skirmisher fire just for minutes, and for no reason.
I've seen cav units just galop past enemy arty when they could of flank charged to ruin them (with arty being completely unprotected)

I don't know it feels like I am missing something.  Also the brigade level chinese fire drills still happen for me, IE.... regiments/battalions completely changing place with each other when (for example) I tell a birgade commander to advance some (100-300 yards) and maybe wheel right/left a bit.
Just feels like I am missing something.

Can post more screenshots and give any if anyone may ask of.

I understand trying to mod the AI to make it more historical, so why would those cav units in my link/screenshot not engage at THAT range!?!
Its that kind of stuff (with a lot more of those odd happenings) that makes me feel like I am missing stuff.

PS

I LOVE THIS MOD AND THIS GAME YALL ARE AMAMING!!
Would really like to be apart of this community, please don't take this as a "dis" or anything I am just noticing a lot of odd stuff since I have installed the mod. Hence the feeling like I am missing something.

PPS
Just joined the Discord so if it is easier just hit me up on there. heck i could even stream/ share screen to show the odd ball stuff. (same name)


Last edited by mrfox1918 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  DumpTruck on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:05 am

Those units should be retreating if they're under fire like that. The AI should be automatically withdrawing cavalry thats under fire for the most part.

Usually I find the AI to make reasonable decisions, if a bit slowly. If you have a really good position on a hill they do seem to struggle with recognizing the lethality of artillery, but good ai that understands every complexity of a battle situation is a little outside the abilities of modern games unfortunately. I'm sure the AI had a plan when they stood their cavalry in front of your guns, but all it takes is a wrench in the cogs to stop the whole thing. A commander dies or gets out of position and things can go south quickly.

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Post  mrfox1918 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:17 am

They should of engaged in the pic I posted since they literally passed each other.
I usually take a small command in large battles, however the AI just seems to durp itself.
Over the weekend I can post more info on the odd ball stuff I am experiencing (both here and on discord now ^.^ )

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Post  DumpTruck on Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:28 am

The cavalry in the picture might have been out of the commander's ability to send a message to them, preventing the charge. Or they were just moving forward, the enemy did the same and all the sudden they're behind them and they turned to face them.

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Post  Mr. Digby on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:54 pm

I do not have the DLCs deactivated

That may be contributing to the weirdness you are seeing. The DLCs have their own Logistics files and they can be loaded by the game instead of the KS Mod ones. I suggest you rename the folders for the DLCs by maybe putting an 'x' in front of the folder name or something. You can also still use the maps from the DLCs by making a new folder in your SoW Mods subfolder and calling it "DLCS". Within THAT folder create a subfolder called "Maps" and in that folder copy (not move) across all the map files from your dlcs. There are 5 files associated with each map. These are "bmp", "csv", "ini", "dds" and "lsl". You will now see your new mod called "DLCS" in the mods option screen in the game. Load it before the KS Mods.

Be aware that the KS Mod includes some map files from the DLCs because the maps as released have faults on them which we have corrected. The QB map is one that has given us all kinds of trouble because there's actually two official versions out there that are not compatible with each other. Check which map files from the DLCs are already included with the KS Mod and do not copy those over to your new DLCS Mod.

Regarding game play... sometimes a unit will attack or charge an enemy unit and then only sees that unit as its target. If a second enemy unit interposes, the first unit may be unable to switch targets. That is a limitation of the game engine sadly. I have seen it a number of times. Occasionally once the AI realises there is another threat it will deal with it, but sometimes it won't. That is all to do with calculations the game does based on the orders or stance of the two unit's commanders plus the threat presented by the size of the enemy unit compared to its own, and its LoS. A very small unit may not attack a bigger one as it thinks it won't gain a win and the bigger one may have an insufficiently aggressive order from its commander so you get a stand off.

Sometimes also apparently flat open ground can introduce a LoS break. We can't see it from our perspective, but the AI LoS does. The AI draws a LoS from about the height of the waist level of the sprites so it has a very low level view. LoS is also drawn only from a units flag marker, not from all it's sprites so sometimes opposing units can overlap in terms of the games graphics when in reality they are unaware of each other. I have seen squares with cavalry very close to them on flat open ground not shooting at the cavalry. This is because it can't see them. This is a drawback of the scaling of the game and cannot be altered.

These kinds of things did happen in actual warfare so its not that broken... just a bit broken, but the broken bit can sometimes be explained away by how the game operates. Perhaps a square of infantry could see cavalry nearby but their officers ordered them not to fire for reasons that made sense to them but perhaps not to another general. These things happened.

However some of the behaviour you are describing does sound wrong. Cavalry do not stand and eat artillery fire in the KS Mod (they do that in the vanilla game but there it doesn't matter because vanilla artillery shoots marshmallows and not cannon balls), they will fall back to a longer range if given no other orders to do anything about it. Can you please confirm you only have the 3 KS Mods installed and no other mods at all (such as Grog toolbar etc). Other mods may well cause unpredictable behaviour. Only install the mods as listed here on the forums. Please don't install any files from the Discord downloads channel. Those are our latest testing updates and may cause problems. You are okay to install this if you join us for an MP game as we can talk you through which ones you need but please avoid them otherwise.

In my mind I interpret a lot of what the game does in a semi-abstract way. Its best not to look too literally at what the sprites and units are doing or make assumptions about what they might possibly be doing or trying to do. Like miniatures on a model wargames table they are not in scale with the ground scale of the game, and while you might find that awkward to grasp, my background is as a table top wargamer using miniatures and when that is your hobby you very quickly use your imagination to explain away rule mechanisms that as basic calculations look odd.

Try to consider the encounters on the field in terms of results and not as actual events.

BTW also in Napoleonic battles units did indeed stand there and just get shot to pieces. It happened famously at both Waterloo and at Borodino in 1812 to name just two instances. So if you think SoW's AI is "durpy" then that isn't a bad thing Very Happy There have been many "durpy" real generals throughout history! Or units did what might seem to be "durpy" things but in fact were necessary to endure in order to win the day, such as British squares at Waterloo that suffered heavy loss from cannon fire for hours without moving because they simply had to do that to hold the ridge.

I hope some of these concepts and thoughts help but it may be a good idea to join us on Discord for a game and we can talk about it and see if there's anything in your install that might not be functioning right.
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Post  mrfox1918 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:10 pm

Thanks Mr. Digby!
Yeah disabling the DLCs seems to have fixed it! The AI seems tons better now.
Yeah you are right to think of SOW from more a tabletop perspective just to kind of give it some leeway. Guess I did not realize how many limitations to the modding of the game there really were. And yeah just as a side note the KS mods (the 3 of them) are the only ones I have active. No toolbar or nothing else just the KS, the sprites, and the maps? or whatever the other one was.

Appreciate all the feedback and help! Seems loads better now!

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Post  Mr. Digby on Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:30 pm

Good to hear, also great to see you in the game yesterday. It sounds like you had a fun time even with such a small command. Try an infantry division next time as then you get a couple of batteries of artillery to play with and they are my favourite tool of destruction.
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