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GCM Morale Changes

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GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg little mac on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Garnier made some pretty significant changes to the morale structure of the GCM.

You should all check it out. It's pretty much just an experiment for a bit.

http://forums.sowmp.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2922&sid=40ada323a0edcc02e0bc99ce6790a013#p2922
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  Blackstreet on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:25 pm

kg little mac wrote:Garnier made some pretty significant changes to the morale structure of the GCM.

You should all check it out. It's pretty much just an experiment for a bit.

http://forums.sowmp.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2922&sid=40ada323a0edcc02e0bc99ce6790a013#p2922

1% eh. As you mention, not sure what is was before. Would be nice to think an Army commander's presence was more... influential.
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  Uncle Billy on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:52 pm

I'm not sure why Garnier is doing this. It must be because of something specific to GCM. I think this points to the need to start using game changes that are more in keeping with historic combat. Perhaps it is time to create a subset of changes that incorporate some of the mods in GCM and some in KS. For example, keep the artillery/ rifle ranges as they are in GCM and keep slower firing rates and increased morale hits for casualties in the KS mod. This would replace GCM Gameplay2.

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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  Baldwin1 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:11 pm

I would think Bobby Lee had more than a 1% influence when he rode to the front scratch

Problem is Garnier is modding to get rid of stacking , but you can't really try to keep fixing and fixing to prevent people's gaminess like he's also getting rid of support bonus. Eventually when you round off all the sharp edges (interesting features), the game would get dull, all the commanders become the same and you lose the little intricate things that makes this game unique and fun.

I've always said gentleman's rules are the only workaround. Such as saying in the pre-game spiel that you should not purposely stack your units and try to keep good spacing. There is always the concept that you don't have to play with people who are constantly using gamey tactics. Or perhaps spreading out the objectives will lead to less 'bunching and stacking' near the objectives.

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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg little mac on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:07 pm

Uncle Billy wrote:I'm not sure why Garnier is doing this. It must be because of something specific to GCM. I think this points to the need to start using game changes that are more in keeping with historic combat. Perhaps it is time to create a subset of changes that incorporate some of the mods in GCM and some in KS. For example, keep the artillery/ rifle ranges as they are in GCM and keep slower firing rates and increased morale hits for casualties in the KS mod. This would replace GCM Gameplay2.

Garnier is trying to encourage or at least not penalize players who keep their lines spread out. In the HG game Saturday, I crammed my whole division (5000 men) into a pretty small wooded area. After a brief fight using both the brigades I controlled (William and Allsaints controlled the other two), I moved the largest brigade behind Will and Allsaints boys who were in a rather large firefight. With that large brigade packed right behind them (not stacked and shooting, just sitting behind them), they were able to out-shoot the rebs even though outnumbered. I think a lot of that is the result of the bonus regiments receive from nearby units.

The bunched regiment bonus problem in the GCM games dates back to the massed column charge days. It was almost impossible to defeat because of the morale bonuses the bunched regiments gave each other. Garnier made changes which finally made column charging obsolete: slowing march columns to a crawl when within 300 yards of the enemy and slowing the melee resolution time. But then we started having the massed regiment downhill stacking problem. Especially in woods, the side which is below the enemy gets line of sight with multiple stacked regiments against a line on a ridge. They can stay there and fire all day and never lose morale, mostly because of the "stacking morale bonus."

This problem is hard to solve even with a gentleman's agreement because it happens on accident quite a bit.

We played several games with the new morale changes, and the games were fine. At first, the regiments held a little too long while in a firefight, so Garnier made some adjustments and there's really not a difference in actual gameplay now, except you don't get the stacking bonus.

Yesterday evening, Garnier put the morale bonuses given by commanders back so that they are determined by the commander's experience again.

Like everything in the GCM, nothing is set in stone. We'll play this way for a while and see how the games go.

I heard a rumor form a certain tester that the 1.6 patch will cure the actual line of sight problems associated with stacking.

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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  Uncle Billy on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:30 pm

I read Garnier's latest explanation of what he is trying to do. He wants to have units break and return several times before they rout off the field for good. That's a very good goal. It's one of the reasons the morale losses per casualty are what they are in the KS mod. Our units behave exactly that way. The only difference is that Garnier would like to have the final retreat happen after 30-50% casualties, while in KS it is 30% on average. He could save himself some effort by using the KS values as a starting point and adjust them so he ends up with the numbers he is after. The one problem may be that KS does not adjust any other morale variable while it is likely that GCM does. The interplay between all the modifiers is complex, so at worse, Garnier may need go back to to the stock values and start all over again.

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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  MajorByrd on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:25 pm

Getting rid of the support bonus ought to prevent the shakyness of detatched elements also. Before, when not in line with the main body of the army, troops seemed to get terribly shaky, not able to fight even if their lives depended on it. I quiet like the changes. I think one of hi main thoughts was to make the game easier for new players. With the current influx of new people, it might be about time to do just that.
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg_sspoom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:50 pm

As far as I'm concerned the changes made were unnecessary and broke the game for me. I have done dozens of fighting withdrawals all the same way I played last night and Never had the ridiculous behavior I got last night, units up in casualties gaining points withdrawing and shooting falling back to the line slightly behind them breaking en mass and routing towards the enemy. Some things shouldn't be modded. The support and morale models were fine stock, now they are broke.
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg little mac on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:56 pm

Steve, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but saying the game is now broke for you and that you're not going to play anymore GCM games and then quitting in the middle of an epic battle is over-the-top in my opinion. By the way, we still managed to win that game. I do agree that the retreating mechanism does seem to be affected by the morale changes, and after looking at Garnier's latest post and seeing how much the support bonus really is, I'm sure the complete removal of them is going to affect more than just retreating. As you know, I retreat out of melee quite often, and since the last patch, regiments don't do the autocharge of death over and over like they used to when retreating out of melee. In the game yesterday, after you left, Barlow pressed into the three regiments I brought over to support you and Will. I retreated out of the melees and my guys morale fell to panicked and they retreated several times (fortunately for me not toward the enemy). I was able to rally them, eventually, and we made a great final stand to win the game. Great battle: http://www.sowmp.com/gcm/battles/battle/14838

Garnier came on ts just after the game and basically told us what he had been doing (see below post). I left but am going to ask him to look at the retreating mechanisms and see if he can make some changes to help stop what happened to you and everyone else who retreated in the game last night.

Bottom line: GCM games are sometimes play test games for Garnier. And we should look at them as such, especially when he tells us in advance he's made changes and he's not 100% sure of the ramifications. But I must say he's always been responsive to the community's complaints to changes he makes.

Hopefully, you'll come back and play.


"Well.. just spent 8 hours testing stuff and redid my changes.

They should potentially rout sooner. They'll possibly fall back at "uneasy" or later, and possibly retreat at "wavering" or later -- more like how it had been I think. More importantly, they'll more likely become "broken" instead of routing, and need to be rallied, rather than just fighting til they rout completely.

We'll see how this goes. The main question now will be how quickly we want them to lose morale, and how much faster flanking fire should cause morale loss. I can adjust this safely without changing the rest of the mechanics. So if everyone agrees they're losing morale too fast it can be addressed without reverting everything. Currently flanking fire is 5x morale loss. So if you have a unit that would normally break after 150 casualties, it will only take 30 flank casualties to cause it to break. This might be a problem -- I might need to bring the factors closer together. But I like having flanking be critically important even in the middle of the line -- it makes the tactics at the front more interesting.


I observed a few things while testing that ought to be written down so I don't forget..

The support bonus is +50 morale for every unit that you are close enough to. So if you piled 10 regiments together, they'll all have +500 morale. (Guns count too..) So I'm pretty sure I don't want to go back to having the support bonus if that's how it works.

Shrapnel/Shell give about -3 morale when they miss a regiment or gun."

http://forums.sowmp.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2943&sid=66e8eea1ba8afe1bbde2fd0ad6c9dfa9#p2943
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg_sspoom on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:13 pm

When he is done tweaking I will likely test the waters. But what I experienced in that game was
NOT what I have experienced time and time again in many fighting withdrawal situations in over 3 years of playing. Yeah I shouldn't have quit, but I should have known better than to join in the first place because I knew the tweaks would bleed over into areas where they were not intended to affect. It was late and I had no need for another half hour to hour of frustration. As I have been told several times " It's Garniers mod he will do what he wants so take it or leave it" I guess I will take a break and let you guys be his test team. If or when it gets sorted out to the communitys liking I will try again but for now I will step aside and keep out of it. But I will repeat I don't think it was broken and its too complicated a system to tweak without getting unbargained for results.
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg little mac on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:57 am

Well. . . I like some of the aspects of the sans support bonus GCM, and I don't particularly like some of it.

I need to think a bit before I say more.

But I will say that this evening's game was probably the most intense SOW game I've ever played in: Palmer (U) gets flanked by Seal (C), he makes a masterful retreat; Jonah (C), with the support of a brigade of Fowler's (C), brings the full weight of his division down on Longstreet (U); I (U) attack Fowler's flank to relieve pressure; Vegas (C) attacks my flank; Mongoose (U) and Jim (U) attack Vegas' flank and Will (C); our left seems to crumble; Longstreet and Palmer retreat; I get overwhelmed and retreat; Mongoose and Jim are pushing the Rebs back on our right; we rally at the stone walls; Seal and Jonah and Fowler push on; Seal goes around our left and takes the back objective; I send 2 fresh regiments and Mongoose's whole division to run Seal off and counter attack on the left; it takes us a while to march over; we attack Seal on the far left; he retreats one brigade; Seal's other brigade and Jonah and Fowler attack our center; we break; we retreat; we reform in front of the guns; Jim is attacked on our right by Vegas and Will; he gives ground but punishes his assailants; They come again; we stand in front of the guns; we bring rallied regiments back to make the final stand; we lose a lot of guns; we lose more regiments; Mongoose makes progress on the left; he takes their objective; all appears lost in the middle; Jonah is unstoppable, but not really; we hold the middle -- a miracle; they press our right and turn the objective neutral; their attack is desperate; Jonah sends a regiment after Palmer's guns; I send a rallied regiment to stop them; I rout Jonah's regiment; my boys rout after a cannon hit thirty seconds later; we counter attack our right; we drive them off; time expires; WE WIN!

Seriously EPIC.

Lots of breaking and rallying. Flank fire is devastating. The use of your commanders to give support to your regiments is crucial.

I'm not saying it's all good. Too early for that. I think Garnier is on the right track. No stacking in the game. Incredible amount of maneuvering.

2:45 of real time. Fighting, rallying, retreating, maneuvering the whole time.

http://www.sowmp.com/gcm/battles/battle/14865
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  WJPalmer on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:08 am

Great AAR. While "Epic" is overused, it is truly appropriate in describing this battle-- which had more plot twists than a dime-novel. Getting one that's half as exciting as this, even once a week, is what keeps us coming back.
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  Blackstreet on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:58 pm

Wow - thanks for the epic AAR Soldier - sounds like this epic change is going to create some really epic battles in our already epic HITS/GCM games! Epic!

Laughing
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  M.Jonah on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:48 pm

While Marks report is epic and did fairly represent that battle i also fought one last night where as with Steve regiments that were up in casuatlties and at one point high in morale just melted away but in respect to BeedStu and Swinder who basically had almost a 2-1 advantage over me in regiments i seemed to fold all to quick and barely had time to rally my regiments into some for of order again before being pressed again and even though i quite clearly was shooting up some of Swinders regiments his did not break and demoralize the rest of his division.

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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg little mac on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:11 pm

GCM battles are playing really well now. Last battle I had 3 regiments break after fighting for a full 20 minutes or so and taking between 40 and 50 percent casualties. I rallied them and was able to get them back in the fight. I like seeing the morale boost a regiment gets when an enemy regiment breaks or routes nearby.

Kevin, I hope you reconsider and join us for the HG game Saturday.

SSpoom even played last night and didn't complain after the game. What a Face
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Re: GCM Morale Changes

Post  kg_sspoom on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:03 pm

I only didn't complain because it doesn't do any good. Its playable, but I'm not a fan of the changes.
Its not the game I love anymore,but its still worth playing once in a while if you don't take it seriously.
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