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Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

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Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  ushiri on Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:06 pm

I read some in the forum here about supplylines but more ot didn´t seem to
really touch why they exist ingame and how the can effect the game if they
are to be taken ( if possible).

And if they can be taken does it have any significant effect in it?

-- Extra supply trains in player vs player battles--
Another question is if its possible to put more effect in it ( or at least in
player versus player mp scenarios) and perhaps add 2 more supplytrain
units in the game so it could be easier to capture and add a extra layer/dimension
to the allready great mod?

Perhaps this has allready been discussed, I dont know much about logistics
and supply during the Napoleonics but it hasn´t been portrayed so much from
what I have seen.

-- Personal interest--
I have been a lover of supply and attrition since I
played " Storm across Europe" on the C64 and quite
much liked it in the rts Rise of nations.
ushiri
ushiri

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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Mr. Digby on Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:25 pm

In military terms supply lines are usually a strategic factor. Since SoW is a tactical game, they don't usually have relevance. Some of the SoW KS Mod scenarios we play do require the player team to keep their LoS secure however, just to add to the workload.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  ushiri on Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:38 pm

Is it possible to capture them, I think I have done that in Gettysburg, but it
makes no different what so ever in Waterloo or Gettysburg ?

Which sorts of scenarios do you mean require LOS to them and for what reason if I dear to ask ?
ushiri
ushiri

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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Mr. Digby on Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:43 pm

I don't know which of the scenarios issued with the mod require LoS protection but we have them sometimes in MP games. The way it is done is just to add an objective behind the player side, usually on a principal raod. That way the AI might attack it - or it might not, but it focuses the player into knowing it must be defended and held.

_________________
The other Martin - Charles Reille, le dernier Maréchal de France.

"Any hussar who has not got himself killed by the age of 30 is a jackass." - Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle, commander of Napoleon's light cavalry, killed in battle at Wagram 6 July 1809, aged 34.

"I had forgotten there was an objective." - Generallieutenant Mikhail Borozdin I
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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Martin on Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:35 pm

Hi Ushiri

I'm with you on the importance of trains on the battlefield, and the need to defend them.  With ACW armies of any size, there would have been literally thousands of vehicles, most within a few hundred yards of the frontline.  With all that enemy cavalry about, it was actually the safest place, and the troops needed quick access to their contents to function effectively, either during battle or immediately after it.

Generals like Grant made huge efforts to reduce the trains, but even in his army each infantry brigade still had between 50 and 60 wagons in 1863.  Other armies had more.  And the brigade baggage needed to be with the troops, or they couldn't cook, would have had nothing to cook anyway, no tents to sleep in, no first-line reserve ammo, no bandages and medicines for the regimental medics, no reserve equipment for the quartermaster, and no means of managing all the above without the clerks and their tables & chairs, forms & ink to keep track of it all.  The brigade trains formed the bulk of the trains numerically, but there were still more at division, corps and army level, including hospitals, reserve ammo, veterinarians, farriers, pontoons etc.  Normally plus hundreds of non-army sutlers' wagons too.

For the Wilderness Campaign in 1864 Grant went further in pruning the logistical tail.  Nevertheless there were still perhaps 6,000 vehicles with the Army of the Potomac (including several hundred sutlers' wagons).  But he went too far, and it was found that operational effectiveness was severely compromised.  Eg the cavalry and artillery horses needed their grain wagons, as there were not enough hours in the day to both fight and graze, and the infantry couldn't actually carry the extra ammo they were allocated because the ammo wagons had been sent far to the rear.  These and other 'innovations' had to be reversed a few weeks later.  I haven't done the maths for later in the campaign, but my estimate would be he was back up to about 8,000 wagons by then.

Be aware however, most wargamers hate supply wagons, and wish them away  Very Happy

It is possible to create supply trains, at least in GB.  You do this by treating most wagons as artillery units, but under an infantry brigade commander.  Sounds odd, but I've found this works best for display purposes.  By going this route, you can also make the trains very valuable in terms of points, for those who track such things.  This does at least moderate the behaviour of some players, who would really rather not bother with logistics at all!

PM me your address if you're interested, and I'll email you a unitglobal file as an example.

Martin (J)

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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  ushiri on Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:13 am


Nice Martin, Yes I think the value of supply trains have to little focus, Your idea sounds very
interesting to me, I have no clue how to include it in the Gettysburg since I have no
experience with modding, just good ideas.

So basicly you mean artillery sprites will be exhanged to the look of
supply wagons and have the same value as a regular supply wagon?

I mean I can understand that people want to focus on the battle but I
think a very important aspect is this part to be simulated or at least
to put some focus on it.

Do you think it´s possible to try to attack the supply trains if
altered in your way or would it mostly be focused on mp gameplay ?

I must recommend you to check out the game " Grand tactician", that will
focus indept on supply lines in a sort of similar gameplay as the scourge of war
series but very much deeper in terms of this and engineering units and more.

I will pm you
ushiri
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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Martin on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:58 pm

Yes, the "artillery" units have the look of supply wagons.  I'm not sure if they have the same value, or more, or less.  But in absolute terms they are valuable according to the game's point system.  If you lose a lot of wagons, you can easily lose several thousand points.  So it hurts.

Yes it is possible to attack supply trains.  In fact I have run scenarios where the objective of one side is to escort the trains through enemy country to a key point.  I wouldn't wish to play such scenarios all the time, but it t makes a nice change form a straight-up battle.

Thanks for heads-up re "Grand tactician".  If they can pull it off it will be marvellous.  Some very interesting ides.  My only concern is that they may overreach.  The game appears to cover the whole war at strategic, operational and tactical levels.  A mammoth task.  Due later this year, I see.  Will definitely keep a look-out for it.

Martin (J)

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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  ushiri on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:18 am

Would it be possible to make a game where only the player side has the big supply trains units and the ai not ?

Also would the ai by default try to attack/capture supply trains, because then it would be quite interesting to have the bigger sized supply trains in regular battle perhaps ?
ushiri
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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Martin on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Would it be possible to make a game where only the player side has the big supply trains units and the ai not ?

Yes it would, and we have run such games in the past.


Also would the ai by default try to attack/capture supply trains, because then it would be quite interesting to have the bigger sized supply trains in regular battle perhaps ?

It would not regard the trains as supply wagons, but as a combat unit like any other.  It would try and attack them if they are near enough.  

Personally I would like to try a battle with large trains present.  It would help to prevent unhistorical tactics.  For example, it's way too easy to pull back in a sector if you realise things are going against you.  In reality, you had to get all the impedimenta away first.  Not only the wagons, but some of the wounded too - essentially those who had not been moved further back to division or corps hospitals.  Also the ammo boxes.  After early ACW battles where regiments ran out of ammo and decamped to the rear in search of replenishment, they appear to have set-up supply-chains.  This involved removing the ammo boxes from the wagons, unscrewing them (as in Zulu!) and setting-up relays to the front line.  This was typically done by the bandsman, and also the orphan boys often attached to regiments.  In extremis the stretcher-bearers were pressed into service too.  If you suddenly found it necessary to retreat, you couldn't just pick-up hundreds of ammo boxes and bring them with you.

I should say the above relates to ACW battles.  Some but perhaps not all factors would apply to Napoleonic.  There would certainly be huge numbers of wagons around.  Adkin calculates that at Waterloo the French grand battery alone had about 350 attached vehicles immediately to its rear, including limbers, caissons, and specialist wagons. If you have the book, there's a map on p298 showing their deployment.

But of course we might meet resistance from other players.  And they are after all playing for fun  Shocked


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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  ushiri on Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:40 pm

haha I understand what you mean about playing for fun, then there are very diverse ideas of what is considered fun as you and me think this would be fun Smile

Anyhow I´d love to try this as it seems allmost erotical arousing to be a part of in a game.
I like a slow retreat with all this things considered, I feel it should be something that you have to consider how you do it and not a quick thing, that it can go to hell with it if you fail, but also a tactical win in a smaller part if you succed.

I haven´t heard about the game named Zulu, is it the new fps you mean? closest I have been to zulu is in Rourke´s drift on the amiga and a mod for a total war game.
ushiri
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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

Post  Martin on Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Sorry, I was less than clear there. I was referring to Zulu Dawn, the movie. The scene at Isandlwana where the redcoats are running out of ammo and soldiers are sent back to get more, but there are delays due to officious commissary sergeants and being unable to open the boxes through lack of screwdrivers.

It's now suggested that these old theories are apocryphal, and that defeat was due to other factors. But the ammo relay system was real, and identical to that used in the ACW.

m

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Re: Supply wagons, why do they exist ingame and how can they be improved.

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