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Scourge of War Waterloo

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Leffe7
kg_sspoom
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Martin
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Mr. Digby
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Post  SolInvictus202 Wed May 06, 2015 7:10 pm

same here: just saw in chat that default ratio is 1:6 - but you can apparently set it for 1:1 cheers
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Post  7thGalaxy Wed May 06, 2015 7:28 pm

The UI looks good to use, if functional rather than pretty.
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Post  Baldwin1 Wed May 06, 2015 7:58 pm

Seems the real time and invisible enemy would make it hard to port over the sandbox campaign to MP. Rest of it looks excellent though, really good gui and pathing so much better.
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Post  Mr. Digby Wed May 06, 2015 10:11 pm

There's still some ugly residue from the original game - same unhistorical capture method for guns (how is this even remotely applicable to Napoleonics, especially the British tactic at Waterloo where the gunners abandoned their cannon to run back behind the protection of the nearest infantry unit, returning to their guns when the danger had passed). Guns look rather ineffective and easy to capture. Units still wheel around the centre, though the actual process has been improved.

I'm eager to get the game and try it out, there's some obvious improvements but at the same time some howlers from the original remain.

I'm also very dubious about some of the flags. The stream showed the crude and inappropriate Prussian flags from the first game and there was a couple of really strange British ones that looked medieval with quartering and gold lions on!

Good points are that each battalion now puts out its own skirmisher company and the pathing looks to be much improved, the AI brigade formation keeping looks better as well.

Contextual GUI looks nice and smooth too; there's effectively no toolbar anymore.
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Post  Grog Wed May 06, 2015 11:02 pm

Though I was a bit distracted whilst watching it, I think it is definitely a leap forward and can't wait to play it.
I didn't see any cav/square action but was relieved to hear that the squares are only effective once fully formed.
The ability to give multiple non text orders to courier before sending him off is good. Don't know how easy it will be to determine unit facing whilst in HITS.
Would have liked to see more HITS.
Also interested to see how units will line walls.
Campaign looks nice. Lovely screens.
Well done NSD.
will need a portrait mod, though :-)
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Post  Uncle Billy Thu May 07, 2015 12:52 am

I just watched the demo.  It's a bit difficult to tell how well the game plays given the presenter's micro-management of the troops.  However it does appear that pathing is better, although troops still perform their battlefield gyrations in line formation.  Again, due to the presenter's play it's hard to really say, but the brigades seemed to do a better job in maintaining formation.

I could see no improvement in the artillery.  It still can't hit the broadside of a barn and it still fires through friendly troops.  That was very disappointing to see.  I imagine the magic canister is still in use too.  The non-historic gun capture was also an unfortunate carryover.  It's hard to fathom why these obvious flaws weren't addressed.

The cavalry's abilities were not shown, which was too bad.  Although the fact that it stood around while the repositioned arty hammered it was not inspiring.  They do that now.

On the cosmetic front, all the armies shown fought in 2 rank lines rather than three.  That should be easy to fix though.

The ability to fortify some buildings is a very nice feature.  Hopefully all the maps will have at least a few such structures.

Although auto-square formation was not shown, it presumably works.  That may end up being the greatest improvement over the current game.

If the current game gets a C/C- for handling nappy battles, I'd give this one a C+/B- based on what was shown.  If all the observed problems can be modded away then the game could raise its grade to an A.
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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 8:37 am

I noticed the scenario editor is not ready, NSD said in the stream that would be issued later.

I think it would be worth approaching NSD for a first patch and asking for:

1) Friendly fire.

2) Some kind of mechanic to inflict more losses on denser targets (basically sits with 1 above).

3) Different artillery capture process more relevant to this period.

4) Option to turn off pop-up messages when you intercept enemy couriers. In the stream the poor dude had to do that multiple times while trying to manage his cavalry charge on the guns. Same for pop-up messages from subordinates accepting your orders. Putting both these into the messages received box would work better.

5) A different facing indicator mechanic for HITS play. You won't be able to see that green arrow drawn on the terrain from the stock HITS height, let alone 2m.

Those are the main things I noticed, anyone got any more to add to a patch list?
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 10:07 am

1) how are they gonna deal with "friendly fire" if the guns shoot straight through their troops at the moment?

even the 2nd line sometimes fired over the heads of the 1st - and no - they were not standing on a hill...


I think this may be a lot to ask for - it would be perfect - no doubt - but if they can simply "fix" this in a small patch - not really sure...

the brief "no - no friendly fire" answer from the Devs in chat led me to believe that they never intended to have something like it...


2) as for guns - you have already mentioned it, Digby: why on earth can't they create "crews" for the guns that can retake them after they went to safety to nearby troops? I am sure that the cavalrymen still gladly capture guns and man them at the expense of letting their horses run off to the rear.... (or front Razz)


3)  unfortunately one was unable to see melees and rout-recoveries. I sencerely hope that they have put away with those silly 10 minute melees and the fact that a battalion fights once, breaks and then never really comes back... I'd like to see a lot more fluent fights going on - with reserves being gradually fed in - not all at once  - and that not only, but also due to spacing. Spacing however appears to have remained mostly the same - only the unit's flag really counts - as one could see battalions form overlapping lines and not really bothering... Sad
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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 10:37 am

Total War among all its faults has friendly fire. You just hit the first thing in your shooting arc, unless you have lofted fire like artillery shot and shell, but a flat trajectory shot type like a musket ball (whether fired singly from a musket or in a big can from a cannon) just hits the first object in its arc.

I would have thought it was a fairly simple piece of coding except that NSD have gone for distinct friendly and hostile targets, so their whole combat system would need an overhaul. It would need a whole new AI pathing/zone of fire logic as well unfortunately. Just switching off fire of rear units who are blocked by friendlies would help for a start.

If we don't like the morale system I am sure we can tweak it in the same way we did with the first game.

Its the extra modding ability in the logistics files that has got me most excited about this new game, I'm hoping many limitations that hampered the first game will be removed.
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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 3:50 pm

Scourge of War Waterloo - Page 2 Waterloo2

What are the Old/Middle Guard wearing here? It looks like top hats and blue dresses. Who quality controlled those sprites? The blue is completely the wrong colour, the overcoat is the wrong shape/style and the bearskin is way off shape. Horrible.

Scourge of War Waterloo - Page 2 Waterloo3

What are these flags? Anyone know? Looks like something Henry V might have flown at Agincourt...


Last edited by Mr. Digby on Thu May 07, 2015 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 3:52 pm

is that actually even a bearskin? looks more like the regular hat of the fantassins ....

well - on 2nd look - one could argue that it probably is meant to be one - the top view would indicate grenadiers - yes...


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Post  Uncle Billy Thu May 07, 2015 3:54 pm

I think they are wearing greatcoats. Was it a cold day in June? The hats do look funny though, like the British stovepipes.
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 3:56 pm

btw - why are they formed in square? where is the cavalry that is threatening them? or is this another one of those "cavalry can charge straight past the infantry because the flag only occupies one hex kinda thing?
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 3:58 pm

as for the flags - is that an Irish harp in the bottom left corner? or what is this supposed to be?
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Post  Uncle Billy Thu May 07, 2015 4:08 pm

I asked if auto-charging is in this game on the NSD forum. The unfortunate reply came back that it is.
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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 4:08 pm

The guard bearskin needs to be plumper and rounder on top and the cloth red crown atop it is sloped more down towards the back.

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.atspace.com/img/Old_Guard_Borodino.jpg

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/shakos_old_guard.jpg

The French uniform blue is a very dark indigo blue. It should be almost black.

https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img27/5841/napoleoncolgrenpied.jpg

I can't find a period picture of the greatcoat but it should be straight-sided and not flare out in a skirt shape.

https://s209.photobucket.com/user/pdguru/media/The%20PdGuru%20Total%20War%20Gallery/france_inf_elite_french_old_guard_info2.jpg.html
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 4:30 pm

honestly - the darkness of the blue of the uniform is something that can be fixed easily from what I hear - I suppose that also goes for the uniform...

things like auto-charging, spacing, those blasted guns and friendly fire are way more important to me personally than this - cause I am unsure whether mods can fix this.... they certainly weren't able to in SoW GB!
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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 4:37 pm

You'd have to create a whole new set of Middle/Old Guard sprites to correct those issues. Given what a significant unit it was at Waterloo I'd count this as a fairly major fail.
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Post  SolInvictus202 Thu May 07, 2015 4:40 pm

oh it is a major fail, no doubt and no argument there - completely agree: BUT - I figured that we'd already have middle guard sprites since we have a Waterloo OOB - no?
the fail is even bigger since they only had to focus on one battle - not the entire napoleonic era!

whereas the other things really can only be fixed by programmers...
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Post  Uncle Billy Thu May 07, 2015 4:53 pm

I'd be surprised if the sprite usage has changed in this game. We should be able to substitute the ones we have for the stock versions where necessary. The only ones we don't have are kneeling sprites for the squares. I can live with having all the units in squares standing, as we do now.
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Post  7thGalaxy Thu May 07, 2015 6:35 pm

I guess they've got time to modify the final sprites - we're not seeing the final product here.. yet. Dunno how much of a priority it will be!

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Post  Mr. Digby Thu May 07, 2015 7:36 pm

On the plus side Davide has revealed on the NSD forum that melees have been given a tweak and will now occur less often. Also division/brigade pathing and deployment routines have been improved so that units merge less.
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Post  SolInvictus202 Fri May 08, 2015 2:47 pm

thanks to all involved on the SoW Forum (I believe I saw Digby, Kevin and 7thGalaxy) we seem to have quite an idea on how melees work now....

all in all - sounds rather promising - especially the morale check before actual combat! Now if they improved they influence of good leaders being able to rally their men (also hinted) this should be a major improvement towards getting it "right"... (even though the last comment on "fun vs realism" is - well - "meh")


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Post  Uncle Billy Fri May 08, 2015 3:15 pm

even though the last comment on "fun vs realism" is - well - "meh"
I let that one pass. It was the reason for keeping melees in the first game too. Now on to the next issue, LOS.
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Post  Mr. Digby Fri May 08, 2015 3:35 pm

Wait, what? Realism is fun. Or did I miss something? Are they mutually exclusive now?

A concern I have is the contextual pop-up menu when we play HITS. I can see this floating toolbar being right in front of where you are looking and it actually obstructing what you want to see. I also don't see how the new green line with arrowhead on the terrain to show facing will work in HITS - and I don't mean our 2yds first person version of hits, I mean NSD 10yards giraffe-neck version.

I need to ask this question on their forums. Hopefully Stefan and Davide our two "allies" have done some 2yds HITS testing.

Also - no compass rose now? How are people supposed to communicate directions in MP?
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